This week’s guest has made a career out of helping millions of people get from Point A to Point B. But what passengers don’t see is how a transportation organization, or any organization, requires principles, leadership, empathy, and passion at every stop along the way.
"How" Matters as Much as "What" (ft. Andy Byford)
How one transportation leader makes people the key to punctual trains and better organizations
OPENING QUOTE:
“My view is you should stick to your principles. And it's certainly something I've always tried to do regardless of the prevailing narrative, political narrative. At the end of the day right is right and wrong is wrong. You've got to be flexible of course, in a senior leadership position. And you've got to understand politics and how to work with politicians, but equally, if something is blatantly immoral, illegal, or just wrong, you can't just ignore that.”
—Andy Byford
GUEST BIO:
Andy Byford is the Transport Commissioner of London, tasked with ensuring that everything from the underground and buses to riverboats and cycleways in one of the world’s busiest cities operates as they should. Across his career, he’s led the New South Wales state railways in Sydney, Australia, as well as mass transit for Toronto, Canada and then New York, his toughest challenge to date.
Learn more about Andy Byford:
CORE TOPICS + DETAILS
[6:50] – Be a Leader in the Little Things
One hallmark of great leadership
Andy shares a story of one boss who insisted that all employees never cross a road when a red pedestrian light was showing. He believed in role modeling safety for employees and the public at large, even in the little things, and that inspired his employees when it came to the big things, too.
[17:44] – Finding a Footing in Troubled Organizations
The beginnings of cultural change
Andy Byford has made a name for himself in helping turn around troubled transportation organizations. One of the ways he does it? By honing in on the psychology of management, assessing how individuals are likely to react to certain changes and anticipating those reactions as best as possible. This proactive approach has been a major asset in all of Andy’s work worldwide
[27:30] – Radical Transparency
Sometimes confrontation is good (and necessary
As a manager or leader, the last thing you want is for your colleagues and employees to stay quiet about problems they perceive. Andy advocates for doing away with coded messages and faux politeness, insisting instead that every say what’s on their minds so that it can get out in the open and be addressed properly.
[32:03] – Bring Everyone Aboard the Train
Share your vision with your entire organization
In his work, Andy makes a point to make a video update every two weeks for the entire organization, including appreciation, motivation, and updates on current issues facing the railway. Is all of this information directly pertinent to every single employee of the organization? Not necessarily. But it helps everyone buy in and feel like they’re part of a united mission, and may just alter their behavior in small ways that add up to big transformational changes.
[37:55] – The Power of Asking
Showing empathy isn’t easy, but it can be simple
When leaders show they care about their people, those people will give as much as +25% more effort in their work, which adds up over an entire organization. But that empathy has to be genuine and known. Ask your people how they’re doing, and genuinely listen to the answers. Seek opportunities to communicate more than what you expect from them. You’ll be amazed by the transformations that occur
RESOURCES
FOLLOW:
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today’s episode. Feel free to DM Chris on social or shoot him an email at chris@chrisroebuck.net
Check out more episodes and content on the Perspectives from the Top Website.
Learn more about Andy Byford:
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CREDITS:
Andy Byford:
My view is you should stick to your principles. And it's certainly something I've always tried to do regardless of the prevailing narrative, political narrative. At the end of the day right is right and wrong is wrong. You've got to be flexible of course, in a senior leadership position. And you've got to understand politics and how to work with politicians, but equally, if something is blatantly, immoral, illegal, or just wrong, you can't just ignore that.
Chris Roebuck:
Welcome to Perspectives From The Top. I'm Chris Roebuck, global keynote speaker with unique leadership experience, from military, business, and government, bestselling author and your guide to greater success. Together we'll discover powerful insights from the world's leading thinkers, doers, and trailblazers, the must know trends, thought provoking revelations and practical actions you can use immediately. This is your exclusive and personal shot of insight and inspiration to help you get to the top.
Chris Roebuck:
Welcome to you and all of our friends in the Perspectives From The Top community around the world. Today, I'm talking to someone whose work has been across three continents, making sure key global cities run smoothly. He started in London on the underground. Now that's British for subway, if you are confused. Then in Sydney, he was COO of the New South Wales state railways, onto Toronto, where he headed the mass transit for the city, then moved south to lead New York's MTA, and finally back across to London where he runs everything from underground, buses, riverboats, cycleways, and more delivering five journeys today to Londoners, all of which he hopes are totally forgettable. It's my great pleasure to welcome on behalf of all of our perspectives from the top community, Andy Byford, transport commissioner for London.
Chris Roebuck:
Andy, it's absolutely marvelous to have you on Perspectives From The Top. One of the things that our listeners like to hear about is something in your career where a boss that you've had has inspired you because we've found that everyone that's come on the show, somewhere has been this amazing boss that's made a real difference to their career. Have you had one of those and what did they do?
Andy Byford:
Yeah, sure. Well, I'd like to say I'm very, I've been very blessed, really, very lucky in my career to have had a lot of good bosses. I mean, my governor down in Sydney, in Australia, Rob Mason was a fabulous boss to me. And funny enough, our old boss, Charles Horton, I thought was a excellent boss [inaudible 00:02:43] but the person I was say, would be someone who's actually been my boss three times, a guy called Mike Brown, and he was also my predecessor here at transport for London. He was the third commissioner, I'm the fourth. And Mike was my, let me try and get this right, he was my general manager. I'll tell you, he was my business manager, my general manager, and my director. So on three occasions, he was my boss. And I think what I really respected about him in particular was I think our philosophies were very similar in that he really believed in walking the floor, going out to meet frontline colleagues, to spend time with frontline colleagues.
Andy Byford:
But also he took a chance on me. I was a fairly young graduate trainee who'd been a duty station manager, but I had also had a very difficult job to do at the tube, which really was challenging and kind of made me unpopular with a lot of the managers because it involved deploying a force of workers who covered for their colleagues while they were undergoing training, and it was highly contentious. Everyone sort of moaned about this team that I had to deploy. But Mike saw in me a potential, and he gave me my first big opportunity, which was to be the group station manager at Hare on the Hill, and I guess in many ways I never looked back. So it's certainly someone, he's certainly someone that's inspired me and informed and influenced the way that I work in that I constantly now look to give back. I constantly look out for talent and I try to give people opportunities in the same way that Mike did to me, did for me all those years ago.
Chris Roebuck:
That's really interesting. I need to admit to listeners today that actually, I also worked for London underground for a short time, many years ago when it was being privatized at the behest of the British government, and I actually worked with Mike Brown. So I know the guy that Andy is talking about and I worked with him in a number of capacities and I can absolutely concur that he had that quiet, unassuming leadership quality that actually sort of inspired people, even though it was quiet and unassuming.
Andy Byford:
Yeah. And Chris, if I might just add to that, he could talk to, and he still can, he's off doing another job now, he's able to talk to people at all levels. So, and I think that is a management skill or a leadership skill, really. You can't really teach that. You just can or you can't, but that certainly resonated with me. And he also was forgiving of mistakes. We all make mistakes and although he expected you to learn from those, I remember once having a pretty horrendous experience, actually, trying to negotiate some industrial change at one of our depots. It really was quite grueling. And I think he saw the impact that it had on me when I came back somewhat shell shocked from the way things had gone. And he was so good about it. We didn't get the result we wanted, although we ultimately did. We just had to take a bit more time to do it, but I remember him giving me a bottle of champagne and saying, "Well done, because you've got us further than we've ever been." So he's just a thoroughly decent person. He and I share a real philosophy in terms of not just how you should manage, but how you should behave and role model as a leader.
Chris Roebuck:
That's really interesting because the next question I was going to ask was about what are the consistent behave behaviors that you have seen in good leaders across your career that have actually got the best out of people to deliver success. You've already alluded to one of those in the case of Mike Brown, which is the ability to go from the boardroom to the equivalent in mass transit of the shop floor which is on the station or in the driver's cab, to talk to people at the front line. So there's that, but are there other sort of consistent behaviors you have seen successful leaders using with people?
Andy Byford:
Sure. I think you've got to be a good role model. And I mentioned Rob Mason, my governor down in Sydney for New South Wales for RailCorp and Rob already instilled into his management team the importance of being a good role model. And even as something is apparently banal, although it isn't, but apparently banal and simple as not walking across the road, when the red man or red person light is showing. If he caught you doing that outside the HQ of RailCorp, he would give you a big telling off because he would wait for the traffic lights to change. And anyone who's lived in Sydney knows the traffic lights can take a while to change as they go through myriad cycles. But obviously the key point was safety, but it was also role modeling safety. If the governor doesn't think personal safety is serious, well, what message are you sending?
Andy Byford:
So again, I tried to do that. I mean, we have a crossing right outside the TFL HQ, and I quite often am the only person who remains on the pavement, I try to encourage others to do it. But there's other things. I mean, in New York City, I caused a bit of a stir because, and I did the same in Toronto and it wasn't a photo op I didn't know if people were watching or not. I used to pick up garbage. And the reason I did that was because I don't believe a good leader walks past a suboptimal condition. You shouldn't ignore something that's either dangerous and/or wrong. You should do something about it.
Andy Byford:
I also don't, I'm not a particularly hierarchical person. I'm not one of those managers who would be like, "Cleaner, come and pick this up." I'm no different to the cleaner. I can pick stuff up. I'm not out to take their jobs. I'm not out to cause a demarcation dispute, but absolutely if I see a tin can rolling around that might fall onto the track and cause an electrical short, or if I see broken glass or if I see something that someone might slip on, I'm not going to ignore that. I will deal with it. So I think role modeling is really important. I think that taking an interest in your colleagues is important.
Andy Byford:
Here's another little anecdote for you. I have a thing about signing long service certificates. I'm sure lots of your listeners in leadership positions do. What marks a couple of my jobs out has been the scale of that challenge, because I remember in Toronto and I was presented with some certificates and I was told just, "Here they are just for info and we've already put the auto signature on." No way. Give me them again. I'm going to personally sign them. If you can be bothered to do 25 years, I can be bothered to sign them. So I took that practice to New York City and at transit, I had 50,000 employees, 50,000 colleagues. And I remember saying, "Oh, I'm going to be signing everyone who's done 25 years or more. I want to personally sign those certificates." And my support team said, "Are you sure you want to do that? That's a lot of certificates." I did it. I used to take home a stack that big every week and I would sit and work my way through them. Ditto, I find out someone has done 40 years. I found out someone the other day, who's done 55 years at TFL.
Chris Roebuck:
Wow.
Andy Byford:
I phone them on their anniversary or more likely I turn up and this guy done 55. I turned up, he was a bit taken aback. And I knew him from my former tenure here at London underground. But you make the extra effort. I go to people's leaving dues, not to sit and get drunk with the lads. That's not good leadership. At the end of the day, there's got to be a respect for the office, but I'll have a pint with them. I'll shake their hands. And I'll say, "Thank you very much. I really appreciate your service." And you know what, quite often, I'm really tired. The last thing I need is an event in the evening but you walk away thinking, "I'm so glad I did that," because you can see that that person really appreciated the fact that the boss bothered to turn up.
Chris Roebuck:
It's amazing to think that just little things make such a real difference. I did an interview with Paul Palmer when he was chief executive of Unilever. Every Friday, he would send five handwritten notes out to an employee somewhere in Unilever to thank them for what they'd done. And he said exactly the same, the impact on one, the individual, but also the impact on the colleagues of the individual, that people like you and Paul show an interest is unbelievable. That leads into the sort of world that you are in, which a lot of people, I think, don't really understand because they don't see behind the scenes. So in the mass transit world, and at the moment you are leading London with five million passenger journeys a day, you have to put through a massive volume of people in a short time, in a safety, critical environment. What are the sort of challenges that that gives to frontline leaders with just that volume, sort of perhaps for people who don't know behind the scenes in mass transit, perhaps don't even realize?
Andy Byford:
Very good question, Chris. And you know what, one of the things that I'm most proud of in my career is I was a frontline member of staff. My career started, I was a station foreman. I was a station foreman at Regents Park. So I wore a pretty scratchy, ill-fitting uniform and worked shifts around the clock. I did nights, early turns, and lates. And that taught me how lonely that job can be actually, because on occasions, you're the person who has to deal with the angry crowd. And yet at that level, you're the person least able to maybe deliver what it is that person wants. You're not particularly empowered. It wasn't your decision that led to a suboptimal condition. You maybe have only just found out about an incident, same time as them. I clearly remember that happening to me at Regents Park.
Andy Byford:
So you have to be able to think quickly, you have to do the right thing, try to placate an angry crowd and hopefully meet customer needs. And so I think what that teaches you, if you're then in a senior position, is I always remember and remind myself, I think, "What would I have done if I was that person on the spot?" I love that quote by Teddy Roosevelt, the man in the arena and the whole purpose of that, or the reason, or the essence of that quote is it's easy to be an armchair critic, but unless you've been in the arena and unless you've had the sweat and blood on you, you don't know what it's like to be there.
Andy Byford:
So I always say to people, it's actually very good to get frontline experience first, because what you don't know is, is how immediate a lot of issues that transit professionals have to resolve are, things just suddenly happen. You can go from a perfectly good service to degraded or even an emergency situation very quickly. So one of my personal rules is to always think if something happens, that I think, "Well, they," as long as that person on the spot took the right decision with the right information that they had at the time, and they put safety and customer service first, even if it is proven subsequently with the benefit of hindsight to be the wrong person, sorry, the wrong decision, I back them to the hilt because I know what it's like to have that suboptimal corpus of knowledge to hand at that very moment.
Andy Byford:
And it really annoys me where people unduly critical after the event. Well, you weren't there on the spot with what that person had to do there and then under pressure and in extremists. So I think it's really important that we remember what frontline colleagues have to do. It is a tough gig. I think management, sorry, societal expectations are increasing almost by the day everyone's got phones now. When I was a foreman, stuff happened, right? No one knew. No one saw. You might have some sort of mess up and you're like, "Oh thank goodness no one noticed that. I got away with it." You don't anymore. Everyone's got cell phones and everyone's got Twitter and Facebook and whatever, but the immediacy of an issue becoming known makes that challenge of being able to provide a capable, competent response, all the more challenging. So hats off to my colleagues on the front line, I really respect what they do.
Chris Roebuck:
Your point about the high insight, and senior leaders judging the actions of people on the front line is ... Unbeknown to you, strangely, there is also specific guidance to senior officers in the British Army about what happens when junior officers make decisions that says exactly what you have said, which is if, even if it goes wrong, if at that point in time, the decision by that individual bearing in mind the circumstances and their experience and knowledge was made with the best intentions, then you cannot hold them to it. So, if you, it's not the power of that leadership decision from the point of view of the senior leader to understand the frontline thought process, is absolutely critical.
Andy Byford:
Well, what can I just say, Chris, and I'm glad to hear that. And I did not know that about the military, but to me it's just basic common sense because to do the opposite, to then castigate someone for what should have done with the benefit of hindsight and obviously, unless they were cavalier in terms of safety or reckless or they'd showed blatant disregard for the customer. If you subsequently castigate someone, you will paralyze frontline decision making [crosstalk 00:16:50].
Chris Roebuck:
Exactly.
Andy Byford:
People just freeze up or they'll just not make a decision because they're afraid of the consequences.
Chris Roebuck:
Exactly. And that is also mentioned in that military guidance as well. If you castigate people for a genuine mistake, they will not be prepared to risk in the future. So linking into the things that we've alluded to around public service and the ethos in public service, I mean, many of our listeners will be coming from bottom line focused, hardnosed commercial organizations. Within public service, it's more about the public good, an ethos of ... that ethos of service, not public, sorry, personal gain. How do you at the top get that ethos to sort of cascade to inspire everybody? I suppose it's about creating belief in what we do then.
Andy Byford:
Very much. So. I mean, wherever I go and I've headed up three major organizations. In Australia, I was the number two, the COO, but I've since headed up the Toronto Transit Commission, I've headed up New York City transit, and now TFL. I always, there's a lot of management, sorry, there's a lot of psychology in management. I think a lot about the job, I think a lot about what makes people tick. I try to get into the psyche of my workforce and my colleagues and I, even on a one-to-one basis, how is that person likely to react? So, one thing I always try and do is create a real team spirit and I've made a bit of a niche for myself of going into troubled organizations, be they organizations such as the TTC, which when I joined was having real problems with perception and customer service, it was somewhat on, it was really having difficulties in terms of PR. New York City transit, which was just coming out of, or in the midst still in many ways, of the so-called summer of discontent, I think they called it. Summer of discontent where there've been all sorts of operational incidents.
Andy Byford:
And now here at TFL where we are on the emergence, finally, from the horrors and nightmares of COVID. So in all cases, I've really felt a need to rally the organization to provide a solid hand on the tiller, to engender in the organization and to talk it up and stick up for it and show that the leader is absolutely believes in the future and isn't panicking, even if inside, you're really worried about something, you don't let that show. So in all three of those examples, I really set out, with my management team, it's not just your off, but to build a real strong vision for the organization that people can rally around, that people understand, that it's meaningful. It's not some management mantra, it's not some word salad, but that people really feel, "Yeah, I can resonate with that. That means something to me."
Andy Byford:
So in a public organization that is harder precisely because in some ways you can't be as dynamic as the private sector, although in terms of dealing with incidents, you have to be. But also because you are recipients of public funding, so you can't just throw money at a problem, because generally that's not the solution, or it's not a viable solution. It's not an option. Quite often you're also dealing with very old infrastructure. So for all those reasons, it sounds like a cliche, it's not meant to be. Your best asset is your people, because if you can galvanize and rally the organization around a common objective and have everyone going, "Yeah, I want that, too." Then that is a very powerful force indeed. And so in all three cases, we've really tried to lift the spirit of the organization and remind everyone of what a great job we do.
Andy Byford:
Final point on this. I feel very strongly about this because if the leader is demonstrating a sort of defeatist attitude or is talking down the organization or even criticizing their own organization, and some people do, what message does that send to the troops? I never let my organization get unfairly maligned. And I stick my head above the parapet for that, and on occasions, it's kind of got me into trouble because I think leaders must have strong principles, must have a strong moral compass. And if someone comes out, even a senior politician and wrongly bad mouths my colleagues, or the workforce, or the organization, obviously people are entitled their opinions, but if it is blatantly unfair, I will not sit silently because otherwise, what message does that send to the organization? It has a crushing impact upon morale. And I personally won't stand for that.
Chris Roebuck:
One of the things I've done over the years is I've asked audiences where I've spoken, what were the things that your best boss did every day that made them special? And I've done that around the world for maybe 20,000 leaders, all sorts of sectors, all sorts of cultures. One of the ones that always comes out is that my leader backed me up when required. And that is exactly the point you are making, that you are backed up by your boss, by your chief executive, in whatever context. It's really interesting, your comment about the ethos that people have within the organizations you're working for. One of the things I experienced at London underground was the fact that if there was a problem on the network, people would hear about it and come in on their day off, unpaid, to try and help the network through. I'm sure it still happens in TFL, but that sort of summarizes the ethos, does it not?
Andy Byford:
It does. And it does still happen in TFL. There's this impression that we're all somehow sitting around drinking tea, just these lazy public servants, getting away with the bare minimum. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think on the contrary, every organization I've worked in, the big three that I've led, and I have nothing but respect for my frontline colleagues and backroom colleagues who invariably quite often could go somewhere else for way more money, way more job security and way less hassle, but they don't. They choose to serve the public. That's their ethos. That's certainly what's made me now a career public servant of 32 years. I've only ever worked in the public sector, apart from a very brief period where the company I was working for, temporarily I was assigned to a private arm of that public entity.
Andy Byford:
But anyway, it is not unusual. Let's take examples, snowstorm. In New York, people would go above and beyond to assist in snowstorms and Toronto, both places that are subject to very extreme weather, particularly in the winter. People would go above and beyond to serve the public. They wouldn't get paid for it quite often, but that is the ethos. To where you started, if I may just go back one more time to the point about backing people. Again, it's an underground example. I won't bore you with all the detail, but I remember swapping a couple of managers, because one of the guys needed a change. And the other one, I needed his skillset to go in and run a very, very, very difficult train crew depot. And it needed a much more focused, and if I'm right, no nonsense, if I'm accurate, or if I'm blunt, a no nonsense approach to putting a stop to some things going on there that just were not acceptable.
Andy Byford:
So surprise, surprise. That manager attracted all sorts of spurious grievances because people just didn't like the fact they were being performance managed and that he was doing the right thing. And he was doing exactly what I asked him to do. So sure enough, he became the subject of a petition to get rid of him. And so I was queried about that, quizzed about that by my boss. And I basically made it clear. I put him in there, if he goes, I go. And I meant that. I absolutely meant that. And that was appreciated very much by the manager I'd put in and we stared down the sort of malevolent forces that were trying in a grotesque manner to get rid of him.
Chris Roebuck:
Your point about the belief in what you do, actually isn't just public sector, I suppose, ethos as well. It's if you believe in what you are doing, whether you are public sector or private sector, because although I have experienced London underground, I've also experienced the same when I was global head of leadership at UBS, where there was an ethos about, we are going to create a brand new type of banking, and people genuinely believed that we were creating something special. So again, gave that extra effort, but you alluded to Toronto, Sydney, London, New York. What I think is interesting is there's probably some very different attitudes to how people work day to day, in those environments. Can you sort of maybe briefly allude to some of those, but did you draw the conclusion that, irrespective of where it was, good leaders still did the same sort of things?
Andy Byford:
Right. So I'll start at the end there, definitely on the latter. I saw people in all three jurisdictions, I could say all four, the UK, Australia, Canada and the US, where people who valued their colleagues and who understood the importance of a team's spirit and fairness and principles and a moral compass, as I mentioned earlier, and who bothered to get out and interact with and understand spend time with the frontline colleagues, that is a common trait. I'd say I saw good evidence of that in all four of those jurisdictions. Having said that, all four did differ. New York is a very no nonsense sort of place. And I have to say, I loved it for that. I really like the fact that in New York and to a certain [inaudible 00:27:26] I'd say Australia, people don't mince words, they come out with it.
Andy Byford:
And I much prefer that actually, because you know where you stand, you're not having this sort of faux politeness where you're not, do you really mean what you're saying? Or are you trying to give me a coded message? I'd rather have out with it, if you've got a problem, I'd like to hear it. Politics influenced, I think to a certain extent the way people behaved. So here is very intense, but maybe less, maybe vicious is too strong a word, but blunt, as New York City where the politics can get pretty tough actually. And I think to a certain extent that influences the way people behave. If you do have very gun, sorry, trigger happy, politicians who the first hint of something going the wrong way, they get rid of you, then that will lead to people becoming very risk averse.
Andy Byford:
And also you tend to then get leaders who are themselves behaving in a certain way, because they're so worried about their own futures, that they behave in a very sort of militaristic macho way and stomp around giving orders and absolutely hammering mistakes, because they're always worried about their own tenure. Whereas in somewhere that's a little more forgiving, you've got a bit more leeway and therefore people tend to behave in a different manner. My view is you should stick to your principles. And it's certainly something I've always tried to do regardless of the prevailing narrative, political narrative, the end of the day, right is right and wrong is wrong. You've got to be flexible of course, in a senior leadership position. And you've got to understand politics and how to work with politicians, but equally, if something is blatantly immoral, illegal, or just wrong, you can't just ignore that.
Chris Roebuck:
It's interesting. The areas that you've worked with Toronto, Australia, New York, and London, those are all transport systems that have to some degree been underfunded for significant periods of time. You will know, but the listeners won't, I recall issues with the central line on the London underground with the signal wiring dating from the 1930s and the whole thing regularly going down, because things were catching alight. Now this was in the early 2000s. So how do you keep people motivated? Basically keep things going till the next morning, until there is funding coming in and allowing staff to keep customers as happy as possible and keep that system running? That must be a massive leadership challenge.
Andy Byford:
It is. And again, I think some of that can be addressed by tapping into that Dunn Kirk spirit to which we referred earlier and people's genuine and vocational approach to the job. The fact that we're in this because we believe in public transport. I used to as [inaudible 00:30:42] southeastern and for southern train operating companies. One of the things that used to give me great pleasure was going to Victoria in the morning or in the evening peak for that matter. But let's say, let's take the morning and you'd see this armada of people coming off our train service heading to the tube, and you would think, "Yep, we did our job this morning. We moved the masses. We got everyone to work, even though it's on this ancient rolling stock and in spite of creaking infrastructure." And you've got a certain real sense of achievement out of that.
Andy Byford:
I always, I'm a huge football fan and no disrespect to the premiership fans out there. My team was, is, and always will be Plymouth Argyle R.C. and we've never been in the premiership. And I think managers of lower league teams, pound for pound at the very least match their famous peers in charge of these international glitterati, the huge teams, because they have to motivate on a much smaller budget and they don't have recourse to just buying the latest, fancy player. So akin to on a railway, you can't just necessarily, unless you work maybe in the Middle East, you just don't have the funds to go out and buy the latest super duper technology. So I really tap into that Dunn Kirk spirit.
Andy Byford:
I make a video for the troops every two weeks, I go somewhere else on the system to show appreciation for what that mode and/or group of people does. So we anchor it around a theme, and I also update the workforce on current issues, such as how we're getting on with building crossrail, the budget, but also make a point of saying a huge, thank you. And then finally, you've got to have a vision, and you've got to show that there is a roadmap out of it. So we had that in Toronto with a five year vision that culminated in the TTC winning the outstanding transit system of the year award, which we were very proud, in New York City with the groundbreaking fast forward plan that we put together, and now here at TFL, we've just launched a new vision and a set of values that were built bottom up, not from the top. We went out and asked our colleagues, what do you want from your TFL over the next five years? And so I think if people understand what the mission is, that there is light at the end of the tunnel, forgive the pun, and that there is acknowledgement for what they do. In the meantime, you can overcome all those obstacles.
Chris Roebuck:
Just a note for our non British listeners, the reference to the Dunn Kirk spirit relates to the removal of British forces from the beaches of France in the second World War, where they had been forced by an overwhelming German advance and effectively, we were faced with tens of thousands of British soldiers being stuck on a beach, cornered and the possibility of them all being captured or killed, and in the light of that impending complete disaster. Ships of all types went across the English channel from war ships to freighters, even to pleasure boats, to go and pull people off that beach. And it was one of the greatest military evacuations in history. So that resonates, that resonates absolutely. But your point about funding, I think, in terms of football teams, it applies to all sports teams at the lower levels who have to make do, rather than the ones at the top.
Chris Roebuck:
Just then sort of pulling it together, reflecting over your career, what do you think would be ... So actually, and thinking about your last answer, the comment about bottom up, it's interesting that when I was in LU we did exactly the same exercise with focus groups to create a set of vision and values behaviors for the introduction of the public, private partnership. So this bottom up approach is absolutely critical. Just to finish off though, over your career, you've seen so many things happen in so many places in the world and you've achieved such success, what would be one thing you would recommend any of our listeners to do one, I suppose, if they're not a leader to make them a better colleague at work, and two, what would be something you would recommend every leader to do to make them a better leader?
Andy Byford:
On the latter, I would say, never sway from your moral compass. I'm not a parent, but I know I've got beautiful nephews and nieces. And it seems to me that, and we always remember when we were kids, right? If you were a child and you lied about something, then you might get away with it because you ... But then you might have to lie to cover the lie. And then you lied to cover the lie to cover the lie. And eventually you get caught out. So my strong advice to any young leaders out there is do what's right. It sounds simple. It's not always easy. In fact, often it's quite hard because you'll come into political or other pressure to maybe subjugate your morals or your principles. But to me, that's a slippery slope. If you stick to doing the right thing, even if it's not the popular thing, you can't really go wrong. You've always put safety first. You've put customers first, you've put your colleagues and customers front and center, then that is a very good course to follow. And it's certainly something that's always guided me in my career, and I'm honored to have had these opportunities that have been given to me. So that's certainly how I'd answer the second part. What was the first part, Chris?
Chris Roebuck:
The first part was just about how you can be a better colleague, even if you're not a leader.
Andy Byford:
Yeah. So look after your colleagues. Give people the benefit of the doubt, put yourselves in their shoes because you don't know what someone's going through. You don't know. We've all got skills and developmental needs. So, the collective is so much stronger than the individual. So get to know your colleagues, help them out, volunteer to do things. Don't wait to be developed. I've always tried to build my own career by not waiting to be given opportunities, but carving out my own opportunities. And sometimes also advice again, to those frontline people would be, get out of your comfort zone. I could still have been at the tube and never have gone on that odyssey around the train operating companies, Australia, Canada, New York. I loved my job at the tube. It was a nice career. I had reasonable prospects as long as things went okay with a bit of luck, but sometimes you've got to get outside your comfort zone and really stretch yourself and see what else is out there and learn, and learn by mistakes. So those are some of the guiding principles for me that I would advocate for others.
Chris Roebuck:
I link to that, it's really interesting that the research data and case study data shows that if leaders just show they care about their people, it can get them to give up to 25% more effort, because it creates a powerful, emotional bond. And if colleagues show they care about their colleagues as well, it has the same effect. So it's just simple, just show you care.
Andy Byford:
Definitely. Empathy, but it's got to be sincere, right?
Chris Roebuck:
Yes, absolutely.
Andy Byford:
We've all seen people where, I mean, I remember back in my station foreman days on occasions, and it was very rare occasions, top brass might emanate from 55 Broadway. Occasionally they'd actually come out and about, but it really wasn't very often. And sometimes it was like a Royal visit. Everything fine? Going okay? Carry on. And you could have said anything. You could have said, "Well, no, I've actually, I'm really not too good actually. I've had a bereavement" or whatever. "Oh, yep. Jolly good. Carry on." You've got to be, if you are to be empathetic, it's got to be genuine. So stop and talk to people and give them your full attention, even if you're really busy. One thing that I, that again, guides my moral compass is I will never do to other people what I hate having done to myself.
Andy Byford:
And we've all been there, where you are talking to someone and they then see someone more interesting, or they just break off and start talking to someone else and you feel like nothing. I just wouldn't do that to someone. I would say, just hang on a second and finish off. Even if I'm, even if it's someone really important wanting to get in, if I'm to talking to one of my colleagues, be that a cleaner, a station assistant, for that time, they are the most important person. I think, as a leader, you must understand the positive or negative impact you can have on others. If you just walk past one of your colleagues as though they don't exist, that they're just some meaningless drone, that again has a crushing impact upon them. But if you actually bother to divert to say, even if it's really quick, and I do this, if you come with me through a station, you'll see, I follow a rather circuitous route.
Andy Byford:
I would divert [inaudible 00:40:10] and say, "Hello. Hi, I'm Andy Byford. In the commissioner. I just wanted to say the place looks immaculate. Thanks so much for what you do. But it's got to be genuine. And people quite often think, wow, I can't believe it. The commissioner stop to talk to me. So know your impact on others, whether you're the commissioner or whether you are a colleague in a junior position, it doesn't matter. It's all about human courtesy and interaction and behaviors. And I agree, it's not the reason I do it, but a very nice sub product, if you like, or output is it does make the place more productive, because a happy ship is an efficient ship
Chris Roebuck:
Andy, brilliant. That's superb. Wise words from somebody who's run four mass transit systems across the world, delivering as we've previously discussed, forgettable journeys. So thank you. Thank you so much. That was really, really good. And, listeners, there are so many lessons in there. I suggest you play this podcast at least twice with a piece of paper handy and note them down because the gems that Andy has given you today are really powerful, simple, actionable things you should go and do within, straight away after this podcast. So Andy, thank you. That was absolutely amazing.
Andy Byford:
It was my pleasure, Chris, thanks so much for giving me the opportunity.
Chris Roebuck:
Thank you. Cheers.
Chris Roebuck:
The beauty of what Andy said was that it was simple, practical, gets the job done and was delivered by a man who is humble, having never forgotten his first steps to where he is now. His respect for everyone at all levels in the organizations he's worked for shines through, no matter if they're on the board or a cleaner on station. It's a real pity more C-suite leaders aren't like that. But that also reflected the importance of being a visible leader who leads by example. He also mentioned how important it was to do what's right. Now that's not often what happens. Sometimes our values bend to accommodate organizational tolerance of unethical, immoral, or even illegal behavior. But in the end that always comes back to haunt us in some way. So have a think about how you can use some of Andy's ideas to help you get to where you want to be. But don't forget that in a week, I will give you a more in depth view of the key takeaways from what Andy said, my insights and three ideas for actions in my reflections on The Top.
Chris Roebuck:
Thanks for tuning in, check out the show notes from today's episodes at perspectivesfromthetop.com, where you can not only enjoy additional resources from today's show, but all previous ones. If you haven't already, subscribed to the show on Spotify app or wherever you get your favorite podcast, so you don't miss any. And if you really enjoyed the show, please give us a five star rating and review, have a question or comment, let's discuss it. Message me on LinkedIn. Perspectives From The Top is produced in collaboration with Detroit Podcast Studios. So have a successful week, use today's new learnings and actions, and remember it's onwards and upwards. See you next time on Perspectives From The Top.