Whether you’re leading a business or a humanitarian organization with 20,000 members worldwide, there are certain principles that will make you a better leader, a more effective member of your team, and a more empathetic human being & member of the global community.
Humanitarian Leadership – The Win/Win (ft. Peter Maurer)
Perspectives on leadership from a leader in the global humanitarian effort
OPENING QUOTE:
“You need to give space to your people on the ground, and you have to educate and strengthen their judgement. And that can only happen through finding the right way between compromise and rotten compromise at the front line.”
—Peter Maurer
GUEST BIO:
Peter Maurer is President of the International Committee of the Red Cross and former head of the Swiss Diplomatic Service. He regularly addresses heads of governments and multilateral fora, such as the United Nations, on critical issues facing the world from conflict and violence to international humanitarian law. Through it all, Peter champions the core principles that underpin humanity and seeks to help and protect those who are victims of conflict and violence worldwide.
Learn more about Peter Maurer
CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[5:30] – Leading from the Middle
Example first, leader second
Peter advocates for a style of leadership that is more focused on setting examples with your own actions, or ‘leading from the middle.’ Co-creating with the people around you is far more powerful than being out in front and saying ‘follow me.’ It’s a matter of sending the message that we’re all in this together, and we all have something to contribute.
[9:57] – Creating Hope in Hopeless Situations
Facing an uphill battle? Change the battle
In Peter’s work, he often works with his teams on what seem to be hopeless causes. But by changing the conversation surrounding their goals— like emphasizing changing laws versus changing human nature— he’s able to help generate hope, inspiration, and the drive to push forward against the odds.
[25:11] – Focus on Methods, Not Intent
To change behavior, assume the best
Peter advocates for a style of leadership that, rather than assuming someone has bad intent, assumes that they simply aren’t equipped with the tools to make the right choice. As soon as you make an issue about principles and values, you close down communication. But if it’s about methods and modalities, it becomes less personal and more pliable.
[32:31] – Empower People to Make Decisions
Give context, then step back
To be able to be effective in a dynamic environment, the people in your teams must be empowered to respond effectively and make decisions at the front line with your support, but without your constant need to approve or deny those decisions. Give them the information they need to make informed decisions, then let them make them.
[49:51] – Lead with Empathy
Start there and success will follow
Empathy is a critical value and drive in both the humanitarian world and the business world. If you don’t really know and feel what your customer is about, you’ll have difficulty designing products or experiences that meet their needs. In a humanitarian context, if you fail to understand people’s basic needs, you’ll fail on your humanitarian mandate as an organization.
RESOURCES:
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CREDITS:
Peter Maurer:
You need to give space to your people on the ground and you have to educate and strengthen their judgment. And that can only happen through finding the right way between compromise and rotten compromise at the front line.
Chris :
Welcome to Perspectives from The Top. I'm Chris Roebuck, global keynote speaker with unique leadership experience from military, business and government, bestselling author and your guy to greater success. Together, we'll discover powerful insights from the world's leading thinkers, doers and trailblazers, the must-know trends, thought-provoking revelations and practical actions you can use immediately. This is your exclusive and personal shot of insight and inspiration to help you get to the top.
Chris :
Welcome to you and all of our friends in the Perspectives from the Top community around the world. Today, I'm talking to someone whose work in some way impacts us all, directly or indirectly, who champions the core principles that underpin humanity and whose organization seeks to help and protect those who are victims of conflict or violence across the world. Every year, he addresses all heads of government when they meet at the United Nation on critical issues facing the world in conflict, violence and humanitarian law. He was previously head of the Swiss Diplomatic Service. And it is my honor, and I mean that, to introduce our guest today, Peter Maurer, president of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
Chris :
Peter, thanks so much for joining us to give your insights to our listeners from I know what is an amazingly busy job of flying across the world and meeting people. I just want to dive straight in. And one of the things I've noticed talking to successful people, both interviewing them here and over my entire career, is that for most successful people, somewhere in their past is a boss or a mentor that's inspired them and done something that has made them then become successful. So did you have somebody like that in your career? And what was the sort of thing that they did to help you get to where you are now?
Peter Maurer:
Well, I do believe I did have maybe more than one, but at least two people who have shaped the way I turned out to be in particular in my diplomatic career. First, I would recall my university professor in history and political science, and what was special about him was that he was a politician. He was a parliamentarian in Switzerland as a professor. And what I took away from him is the sort of openly discussing, managing, digging into the ambivalence and tension between politics and science. While science is about truth, politics is about the doable. And I think I grew up in my years at the university in discussing these issues, in studying about these dilemmas.
Peter Maurer:
And then one of my first bosses in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was actually who became afterwards also president of the ICRC, who was my predecessor, but before was a Swiss diplomat as well. He was state secretary for foreign affairs. And I ran his office. And it is him with him that I learned about negotiations, because we found ourselves in this deplorable situation which resonates with any member or citizen of the United Kingdom where Switzerland have voted no to the European Economic Area and so structured relations with the European Union in the early '90s. And we had to negotiate bilaterally with the European Union. And everything, which I learned early on on negotiation, on how to find consensus in a very difficult period, how to come to agreement has been shaped by him. And the second thing I learned is really to set radical priorities when you lead an organization. And I think he was a master in telling me and learning me how to disregard things on your desk on which you may not have an influence and to focus on what you can shape.
Chris :
[inaudible 00:04:51]. Within the first two minutes, we've got an amazing lesson for listeners who are leaders, which is deal with the things you can do something about and don't worry about the stuff you can't do anything about because you can't do anything about it, which leads on to my second question, which is very much then that experience that you had from both of those inspirational people, you've obviously used that in your career, but therefore, what do you think are the sort of day-to-day things that reflect that that you've used yourself and seen successful leaders do, the sort of simple day-to-day things that you think good leaders should be doing?
Peter Maurer:
Well, what I have come down with is maybe not discussing too much about leadership, but trying to be an example and to set examples and to work with people in order to really create something together. I'm very much a supporter of a leadership which leads from the middle. Leading from the middle is something leading with those who are the experts around you is of critical importance to me. Co-creating with those around you is of critical importance. In the place where I am at the present moment, it is so critically important that you shape somehow and you bring together the professionalism of your negotiating team with the political instincts of each and every negotiation, and doing these combinations of things is of critical importance. I have never been a particularly good boss in feedbacking and second guessing and rehearsing and re-discussing what went good and what went wrong. I have rather been an adopt of leader by example, leadership by working together in a group and trying to really give a sense of purpose to what you are doing through the example you are setting in a team.
Chris :
That simple message of purpose and partnership and working together to some degree in my view emphasizes the best way to do leadership, because too many people seem to work on the basis that the leader is separate from the team and not part of the team, which really isn't how it works, because you lose that co-creation element that you're talking about. And linked to that, the co-creation, leading the ICRC, of all organizations, where you're trying to resolve challenges around violence, around conflict, which pop up like wildfires all around the world, and when you think you've solved one, another one flares up somewhere else, sometimes might seem like a never-ending task. How do you keep your and your team's sort of momentum, motivation and enthusiasm up, because you know that it's going to keep happening unless basic human nature changes?
Peter Maurer:
Well, that's a great question, Chris. Can I respond provocatively...
Chris :
Go for it.
Peter Maurer:
And say probably you only manage to keep the motivation up by pretending that it is not about human nature. Because human nature would be difficult to change while if you look at it as an issue of compliance to law, to policy or agreements to certain practices, then you create a space in which seemingly unmovable positions and behaviors can suddenly be changed. So you transfer basically by changing the basic hypothesis. The basic hypothesis is not that human nature can change. The basic hypothesis is that you can convince people to change according to interests or according to possibilities and ideas that you offer. And I think that's what is all about the core of what ICRC represents at the present moment, trying in frontline negotiations with the militaries on the ground to create a space in which they can pursue their military objectives, but maybe in a way less harmful to the civilians around. And you can negotiate modalities of doing instead of asking the question, "Why you are doing this or that?"
Peter Maurer:
So one of the critical issues of keeping motivation is somehow to create those small steps, which give a perspective of hope in a seemingly hopeless situation. What I have learned and what seems to me so interesting in my experience over the last couple of years is that people affected by war, violence, conflict disasters, they are realistic enough to know that the world tomorrow will not be fundamentally better, but if it is a little bit better, if there is a little bit of improvement, they can go and have hope again. And I think this hope element, the element into trying to design small steps of agreement which represent an improvement of situation is what is so critical for all of us. I see that very often when I talk to our frontline negotiators. They take motivation from small steps forward and from small improvements. And as we know, it's not really important as such for your motivation whether you help one person, 1000 or 500,000 people. I think the important thing is that you move in the right direction.
Chris :
That beautiful point about as long as... And this applies to business organizations just as much to ICRC. As long as within the organization with the people on the front line, there is a perspective that there is hope of improvement and that improvement comes from little steps, not just massive change, then people do remain motivated. And I think if you look at commercial organizations that are going through significant commercial problems, when the leadership of the organization says, "Look. There is hope, but it's not going to change overnight. This could take two or three years to make it work." Now, link to that, so you alluded there to the art of the sort of influence for you as a diplomat is key to success. And that you mentioned in those situations that you're seeking a win-win outcome.
Chris :
One of the things that I've often seen both in the commercial world and the political world is that there are leaders who want to be directive, leaders who think that the win-lose, i.e. "I win and you lose," is a better option. Now, clearly in your perspective that actually isn't what you want to achieve. And do you think that those leaders are actually failing to recognize that even for them a win-win is better than a win-lose?
Peter Maurer:
Well, that's a really critical issue and it references well to a lot of experiences I have. I think if many of the negotiations I'm in for a humanitarian space for access to populations in need are stuck, they are stuck because leaders still believe that there is an alternative and that there is a population which they can neglect. And so one of the key issues of creating a space to influence is also to find those soft points which make them convinced that as leaders, one of the critical issues they need to do is to care about their own people. And I think we have seen this unfortunate tendency over the last couple of years, in particular over the last decades, I would say, of stigmatizing-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:14:04]
Peter Maurer:
... I would say of stigmatizing, excluding certain parts of the populations, calling them terrorists, calling them whatever. And I think one of the critical issues for a humanitarian organization is to bring back this minimal consent into the fact that the other side are humans as well. And it's a message, which very frankly, very often leaders are sensitive, even if by their discourse and first instinct approach it's not what they represent.
Peter Maurer:
What is interesting is very often to recognize that political leaders also in war and armed conflict, they want to be loved by their population. And so you have somehow to find a pathway to convince them that there is a responsibility going beyond just winning a war. And that consensus from the bottom and agreement from the population, from the communities, from body politics in their country is important at a much larger scale than they would like to envisage during active combat operation and war.
Peter Maurer:
So finding that sweet spot where you can turn an argument around, where you can inject some understanding of caring about what is coming from bottom up is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength. And maybe you also can add to their standing as leaders is of critical importance.
Chris :
Therefore what we are effectively saying is, your line was that all leaders want to be loved by at least some of the people around them. The interesting thing that I know through the psychology and the neuroscience of the interaction of leaders with people is that it's quite clear from all the evidence, be it in the workplace, or be it in society, that leaders who show they care about their people through building trust, where they're more focused on the people than to some degree themselves through psychological reciprocation, then get a positive response from the people.
Chris :
And when they get a positive response from the people, they feel good. So they initiate another positive response. It seems that it's this virtuous circle that leaders and people want to build together. The problem is that that virtuous circle can switch to a vicious circle. If the leader does something negative, then the people's response be that at national level, at C-suite level, or at team level, the individual's responses to a leader doing something negative are then responsive, are negative, which sends the whole thing into a tailspin.
Peter Maurer:
Well, indeed. I mean, look, one of the big issues about humanitarian work as we do it at the ICRC is basically trying to reverse negative cycles. It's exactly of what you say. And how do we reverse negative cycles? It's really, first, trying to inject the sense of respecting basic rules during war. Trying to put the protection of people at the center independently on what their political orientation is.
Peter Maurer:
Injecting and trying to cut this vicious circle is also ensuring that basic services can be provided, and people, their social structures are not imploding. And I think these are some of the critical strategies in which humanitarian work is basically contributing to at least stop some of the most vicious cycle. But it's true also that once vicious cycles are spinning, it's very difficult to slow them down to stabilize situations and to come back to the negotiating table for more than just minimal humanitarianism.
Peter Maurer:
We see it at the present moment in a case like Afghanistan. Obviously the previous government and the population in Afghanistan has been in a negative spiral. Social services were not delivered in an adequate way. The fall down and the implosion of the social system and the political system is also due to the lack of support by the Afghan people. Today, the new government struggles to get consensus by the people because they can't easily deliver social services to those people because of the situation in which they are.
Peter Maurer:
So you have to find ways to have minimal consensus amongst belligerent, that certain negative spirals are not what you are trying to do. And you try to counter those negative spirals. Otherwise it's very difficult to see where this ends. And unfortunately, many of the conflicts, which we have seen, which go from bad to more brutal are implosions of minimal consensus amongst belligerence. Never forget humanitarian law, the Geneva Conventions. All these normative systems have been basically found to signal that there is a minimum of civility, which needs to be at all sites of a conflict. And maintaining this minimal, preventing an implosion of this minimal sort of surface on which you can stand is at of utmost importance.
Chris :
It's worth reminding our listeners who aren't necessarily familiar with ICRC, that you have a fundamental role in ICRC as sort of guardians of humanitarian law, guardians of the Geneva Conventions by which those minimum standards are maintained. And a few weeks ago you addressed the UN General Assembly heads of government. And you pointed out to them that there is a requirement for, to put it bluntly, everybody in the room to stick to those rules.
Chris :
But when you look at the behavior of some of the people in that room, or some of the people who weren't in the room, necessarily, they contradict what you are trying to achieve, but then you have to go and deal with these people. How do you do that? Is it a case of just trying to get the best you can, going back to your small steps point in the situation you are in?
Peter Maurer:
It's a really tough question, Chris. I think here again, I would say what saves us or where we find a hook in a situation that you just described is by hypothetically pretending that everybody wants to comply with basic norms, but maybe not be able to. Let's remind ourselves the very intelligent formulation in the Geneva conventions about the mandate of ICRC is that we have been given a mandate to assist states to respect those conventions.
Peter Maurer:
You pretend that states genuinely want to respect. And then you transform a question which could easily be one of agreement or disagreement with content to a question of methodology, how you do it to comply. And that's a soft way of aiding and escaping a principle discussion in which you would accuse those who are not up to speed in respect of not wishing to respect. You basically say, we don't go there. We basically try to transform non-compliance into a methodological issue on how you can improve to comply. And what are pragmatic ways forward?
Peter Maurer:
But of course, we should be very frank, this kind of trick has its pitfalls. We know that a minimal legal framework of behavior like the Geneva Conventions, we know when it is violated. And we know that not every violation is just an incapacity to do it better. It's also an unwillingness of doing better. But you pretend that the unwillingness is not really part of the equation and the conversation, but rather the lack of ability is what you are focusing on.
Peter Maurer:
But you are right, it brings you into difficult tensions between the normative framework for which you stand and the pragmatic and practical power reality with which you are confronted. And this is what makes many of the conversations in which we are, at the end of today, difficult conversations.
Chris :
I love the way you described that, because from my perspective, as someone who studies leadership, who works with leaders, you can take exactly that analysis of your negotiations with those people down to granular level within an organization, where a boss is talking to a member of their team about why they should change behavior. It's that simple.
Chris :
It's not you say your behavior is really, really bad. Now, let's look at how you can improve your behavior. So what I'm saying to listeners is that the techniques you use when negotiating with badly behaved heads of government are the same behaviors they should use when they're trying to help their staff get better. Sorry, I just think that's a really nice analysis.
Peter Maurer:
It's a very interesting situation in which one is in this context. And I agree with your analogy to day-to-day leadership discussions in the business, or in any other context. I think as soon as you make an issue to be an issue of principles and values, you may have a lot of difficulties agreeing on principle and values. But if you make it an issue of modalities, how to achieve something better and to have a better impact and to be better looked at and to have a license to operate, which is more significant, then if you can transform it into modalities issues, that's where I think the critical issue is.
Peter Maurer:
And that's the reason why we always try to work with people together for a specific concrete outcome rather than discussing principles with them. I think the Pope once has referred to that in an interesting phrase when I had a discussion with him. He said, look, if we discuss values and religions, we may not agree for hundreds of years. Protestants and Catholics have shown that they can't agree on certain critical issues. If we agree on what to do today and tomorrow, we may agree in an alliance for action. And I think that's the choices that you have. It doesn't mean that values and principles are not important, but they are here to guide your concrete work at the end of the day.
Chris :
Which goes to the point, again, taking it back to organizations, that organizations will have values and principles, but it is the small, granular day-to-day steps that is what make things happen. So you've kindly, for our listeners, not only contributed your own insights, you've just contributed the insights of the Pope as well. So I'm sure they'll be very happy with that.
Chris :
When it does get practical though, you have 20,000 staff across the globe, nurses, water engineers from all cultural backgrounds, and you need to be able to get those people into high risk areas to do what they need to do. So they need access, they need safe access and obviously resources. So that must put a lot of leadership challenges in the hands of your leaders who are negotiating, or who are actually on the ground. Can you give our listeners some insight into those sort of challenges?
Peter Maurer:
Well, indeed. I mean, if you operate-
Chris :
... to those sort of challenges.
Peter Maurer:
Well, indeed, I mean, if you operate in fragile context, in violent prone conflict and in conflict and war, then you are in highly sensitive issues. And then the polarity and discrepancy between the duty of care for your people and the necessity to have access to populations in need is moving to strong polarities in which you have to find day-to-day pragmatic arrangements and assessments on what is the best deal you can take out of a day.
Peter Maurer:
And that's the reason why, for instance, in our leadership philosophy at the ICRC, because this is so much a day-to-day issue with which we are confronted. We leave many of the last decisions on these questions to the frontline operators. We would never centrally decide. We go into that area. That's the responsibility of the frontline negotiator to say, "Is it today safe to go into [inaudible 00:29:17] Yemen or not?"
Peter Maurer:
And is the deal, is the expected advantage of servicing civilians who are suffering compared to the risk that we are taking for our colleagues, is it the right deal to take at a specific moment? And this is very much a difficult issue, but I think leadership training at the ICRC is first and foremost understanding the complexities of these very difficult situations and being able to make choices, and informed choices, and deliberate choices. It has to do with yes, standard operation procedures with checklists, with procedures, but it has also to do with allowing people to develop their instincts and their judgments.
Peter Maurer:
And I think it is really a very interesting conversation we constantly have. And I have as well with some of our colleagues on the ground. We back up their thinking from headquarters, but we would never impose a decision on them if they don't feel it's the right decision to take at a certain day. So the evolution of power in an organization is of critical importance in order to maintain the judgment at the front line and the dilemmas at the front line. You can centrally organize that.
Peter Maurer:
And that's maybe the most glaring example on why if you want to work and if you are working and have the mandate to work in those difficult areas, you need to give space to your people on the ground and you have to educate and strengthen their judgment. And that can only happen through trusting them, reviewing soberly with them after action reviews, by having a protected space where you try to improve when situations, difficult situations or ill judgments happened, but finding the right way between compromise and rotten compromise at the front line is so important.
Chris :
Peter, that is the one of the most amazing answers I think I've had in any of these interviews, because what you've just set out is that the process by which you get your staff at frontline level to be able to respond to a dynamic environment, as you set out, in terms of one, understanding the complexity, two, cascading decision making to the most appropriate level. Trusting them, enabling that frontline response and giving them space to make it happen, that is something that obviously to some degree, I experienced in the military, where yes, you have standard operating procedures.
Chris :
But within again, the military dynamic frontline, you have to have people on the frontline who can respond sufficiently quickly for it to be a viable response. And what you've set out there is something that I often try and explain to leaders of commercial organizations, which is okay, you aren't in the same situation as the military, or ICRC, potentially being shot at, or in any of those environments, but you are in a dynamic environment. And to be able to respond effectively, you have to empower people to make decisions at front line level with your support whilst helping them to understand the wider context of what's going on. It's really that simple.
Peter Maurer:
It is. Yeah. But as simple as it is, it is not the most common insights in leadership training worldwide. And this is also one of the reasons why a couple of years ago, we came to the conclusion to create our own management and leadership school within ICRC because we thought that most of what was taught around the world would not adequately reflect the complexity of the realities with which we were dealing and is maybe also one of the reason why we came to the conclusion to create a specific center for frontline negotiation, which we entertained today with two or three other humanitarian organizations, because we do believe that the experience and the exchange amongst peers is maybe what is more valuable than textbook leadership training and this peer experience and the accumulation of cases is probably what makes over time a good frontline humanitarian negotiation and in what the example you mentioned, a good soldier or a good officer in combat.
Chris :
Indeed. And we should also say that Peter, and certainly his colleagues who come from Switzerland, our listeners won't be aware that in Switzerland, there is still military service for the population. Correct me if I'm wrong, if it's still going? Therefore, all members of the population at some point in time, experience a basic level of military training around how to get things done and how to literally cascade decision making down.
Chris :
And my work in Switzerland with UBS for five years in Zurich, it was really obvious that there was a basic level of leadership capability within the Swiss business population because of the work of the Swiss military.
Peter Maurer:
It is interesting what you say, this is maybe not by chance that Switzerland has been a country which was at the origin of modern humanitarianism, and that modern humanitarianism grew not too far away from this culture of service to the community, and also of military service. It's not by chance as well. I think that in our work at ICRC, the engagement with the militaries on the ground is one of the key working areas.
Peter Maurer:
And it's interesting that we are probably the only humanitarian organization with such an expanded and multifaceted continuous engagement with militaries, with police force, with even non-state armed groups. As we speak today, Chris, ICRC entertains each and every year regular engagements on international humanitarian law with more than 120 armed forces in the world and with more than 400 non-state armed groups in the theaters of conflict.
Peter Maurer:
So this proximity of humanitarian thinking and humanitarian exposures and military exposures is not by chance because we are in the same space, even if with distinct mandates. But in terms of leadership, this boils down to some similar experiences.
Chris :
And from a non-Swiss perspective, if I could also say that the cultural ethos within Swiss society around the importance of community, the importance of it being about we, not me, I have found is much stronger than in other communities and nations I will not mention.
Chris :
And I think that also goes to the power that ICRC has in terms of why it is in Switzerland, and why it does what it does, but link to that, I think many of our listeners will not also be aware that you play a critical role in conflict areas. You visit prisoners of war. Where there's not conflict, you potentially also visit people who are detained and that vital lifeline to them and their families is critical. But equally, you're looking to the future in relation to I know you gave a speech on the use of autonomous weapons of war and how to regulate them and how to get governments to engage in that, so that there is some form of responsibility on autonomous weapons of war.
Chris :
So your work spreads across from the deeply personal for prisoners of war to the highly strategic future world of AI weapons. And how do you handle that massive breadth of your brief, Peter?
Peter Maurer:
Well, indeed, sometimes it is mind-boggling when agendas converge so prominently as they do over the last years in an organization like ours. The number of conflict, the depth and breadth of humanitarian impacts on vulnerable populations, as well as technological developments on weaponry converge now, to this broad agenda that you have described. Maybe with regard to detainees, it's interesting to highlight as well the element of confidentiality, which is so important in our work.
Peter Maurer:
We wouldn't be able to visit detainees in 100 countries of the world and to visit each and every year, hundreds of thousands of detainees, if this would happen in the public space. I think confidentiality and feedback loops to respective detention authorities is of critical importance in order to have a basis to fulfill certain humanitarian functions.
Peter Maurer:
If this would happen in the public space, it wouldn't happen. And so it's maybe an interesting element also to highlight that a lot of humanitarian work can only happen if it is not happening in the public space. With regard to weaponry, it's indeed one of the issues which has as many other things in society accelerated considerably with the digital transformation of every aspect of life, the digital transformation of warfare has also undergone... has basically come to our reality and therefore our traditional mandate which was since the Geneva Conventions as well, to inform states about the possible humanitarian impact of weapons technology, that this mandate has accelerated because of the technological acceleration.
Peter Maurer:
We have now violence coming to cyberspace, cyber-based operations being used to knock out facilities and capacities of potential adversaries, attacks on hospitals with humanitarian impact. We see weapons which are modernized and digitalized and coming to the battlefield, and therefore the adequacy of the legal system of international humanitarian law with that new technological development is probably pushing itself onto the top.
Peter Maurer:
... pushing itself to the top of our agenda because of the speed of technological development and the speed of the transformation of the battlefield that we are observing today.
Chris :
To your point though, I think it's not actually only the battlefield because we have already seen examples of infrastructure being closed down by hackers, for example, the oil pipeline in the United States, and just basically the seizure of data by criminals for financial gain. But we've certainly seen the ability of certain groups, be they non-national groups to close down critical infrastructure for whatever purpose. Now, if those groups can do it, it then begs the question, what could state actors achieve if they wish to do it?
Peter Maurer:
Well, indeed. I mean, one of the critical issue is how we move to, again, a consensus among states on how they restrict themselves on the use of certain weapons or the use of certain war tactics. And I think that's where the discussion is today, principles of responsible state behavior, is at the origin of the different work processes, which are happening within the UN system, which we are trying to moderate also from ICRC side in bringing expertise and experts together. Reality is that at the present moment, the world of States is confronted with technological possibilities for which there are not yet consensual interpretations or norms and principles of behavior. And I think that's where an organization like ICRC, but also the normative force of the United Nations have an importance because we need to have and to offer the respective platforms in which states can come together to discuss these issues.
Peter Maurer:
And at the present moment, of course, we are far away from consensual interpretation of the basic principles of humanitarian law to the new developments that we are observing. And what you said is, of course, of critical importance, while a lot of countries would agree that international humanitarian laws and principles apply to cyber operations in the context of arm conflict, outside of arm conflict, it's not so sure what the normative system is. What is an attack on a hospital to knock out the database of a hospital outside of an armed conflict? Is this crime? Is this war? What is it? And I think the international community very much struggles with some of these new developments and how to think about these new developments and how to frame them in terms of policy and legal responses.
Chris :
Set across that entire environment that you are trying to address. You have your 20,000 people in stressful, potentially dangerous, potentially life threatening situations who from my perspective are truly inspired. In the purpose of the ICRC and what you are trying to achieve, how do you keep people so inspired in that environment? And there must be lessons for the business world, for the non governmental world about how you can achieve that level of inspiration in such tough environments. What do you think it is?
Peter Maurer:
Well, I think the humanitarian message is an immensely powerful message. And actually people are always surprised when they come from other horizons when I tell them my bigger challenge is not so much to keep people motivated and engaged and inspired, because they are part of the Red Cross family. And so it's kind of this myth of helping the cloud of being a humanitarian, which keep people going. So our problem today, I would say as an organization of 20,000, is not so much motivation. I see the difficulties sometimes for economic operators who emulate such an experience because at the end of the day, our message is enormously supported by our staff, but it is also a very unique message. If you sell a product, you are in a different world than if you assist and protect populations in need.
Peter Maurer:
And so the motivation part is really the least of the problem. The biggest problem is then probably because we have so strong personalities in an organization, which have strong convictions, is to run an organization in a professional business like way, because if business sometimes lacks value on values, humanitarians lack business practice and managerial practice. And what I find interesting about the idea of exchanging more systematically between business operators and humanitarian is that you may find out of a conversation between the two worlds, a better mix on how to manage a humanitarian organization professionally while keeping your value engagement, and how to keep professionally managed businesses, but open perspectives to value creation as an important element of your business operation in society. And I think both words have strengthened weaknesses and bringing the strength and weaknesses in a more conscious way is probably what the big challenge in some of the business areas and some of the humanitarian organization is today.
Chris :
So which beautifully says that our listeners can learn from some of the things around values and purpose from within the humanitarian world and the humanitarian world can learn from some of our listeners who are in the business world in terms of those business procedures, which is brilliant. So it's interesting. That brings it to the point where I would say, given your experience, given the humanitarian world that you are in, what is one thing that you should say every listener should do to be a better colleague in terms of your co-creation and what is something that all leaders should think about more that you would advise our listeners to do?
Peter Maurer:
Well, I would basically go back to one word which I always use in my part of the world and work, and its empathy. I think what we lack in so many conflicts of the world is the understanding of the other. And I think empathy is a critical value and driver in humanitarian work, but it is also in the business world. One of the critical issue, if you don't really know and feel what your customer is about, you have difficulties really designing the products that will make it successfully to the market. And very frankly, if you fail to understand the basic humanitarian needs and to be compassionate about basic humanitarian needs, you will fail on your humanitarian mandate as an organization. Empathy is of critical importance in all parts of our world, as the famous quote goes, no man or woman is an island, no island is alone. I think the bridges between the islands is basically what empathy is.
Chris :
That Peter, that's a beautiful way to finish it. It is from my entire career. Things go well in any organization where there is empathy, there is trust, there is mutual respect. It's about we more than me and people completely underestimate the power of that, because that isn't just a nice to have, that is driven by the neuroscience that we as human beings have where we respond positively to empathy. It's a simple fact. That's an amazing way to finish. You have given us some beautiful examples from the strategic perspective of what is going on in the world around us in terms of current events, but in a way that also links those back down to the granularity of how people, as we have just alluded to, interact as human beings at their best, and how you make the wonderful work that you do with ICRC actually happen. So I think, is there any way that listeners who want to learn more about you and what ICRC does can do that?
Peter Maurer:
Well, you can always follow us on Twitter. You can look at our webpage. You can start to engage with the Red Cross movement around the world. In each and every country there is a Red Cross society. ICRC is in Geneva and in 100 countries of the world. I think it's easy to look us up and to engage, to support us. We appreciate whether it comes from individuals or companies from societies at large. I think we need feedback, we need support, we need eat political support of what we are doing. And so engagement possibilities are manyfold. I can only encourage you to use this podcast as maybe an entry point to learn more.
Chris :
Peter, thank you. Thank you so much on behalf of myself, on behalf of all of our listeners for the seen work that you do and the unseen work that you do, that makes the world a better place for us all. I just cannot say anymore. Thank you so much from us all.
Peter Maurer:
Well, thanks Chris for having me. It was a great pleasure to be with you today.
Chris :
Well, listeners, I'm not quite sure what to say, and probably you aren't either. That was awesome from critical issues in global geopolitics to how to performance manage does not observing humanitarian law and doing things we all find shocking to simple thoughts on why seeking a win-win with other people is the best strategy for you to succeed. So much powerful insight and value there from Peter. Knowledge that has me and probably you really thinking, but practical terms, Peter's comments about leadership, the win-win strategy, the ethos of responsibility we have for others, back again to my common phrase, it's all about we, not me. And that that's the best way to succeed. All give you practical ideas for action. But don't forget in a week's time in my mini pod Reflections on the Top, I will pull the together Peter's key insights, add some of mine and suggest some simple actions you can take to get to where you want to be.
Chris :
Thanks for tuning in, check out the show notes from today's episode at prospectusfromthetop.com where you can not only enjoy additional resources from today's show, but all previous ones if you haven't already subscribed to the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your favorite podcast, so you don't miss any. And if you really enjoyed the show, please give us a five star rating and review. Have a question or comment let's discuss it. Message me on LinkedIn. Perspectives from the Top is produced in collaboration with Detroit Podcast Studios. So have a successful week. Use today's new learnings and actions, and remember it's onwards and upwards. See you next time on Perspectives from the Top.