Perspectives from the Top

Manage Up Without Shutting Down (ft. Sylvia Acevedo)

Episode Summary

When it comes to taking on a leadership role at your organization, managing personalities and goals is only half the equation. The way you take on risk management is an essential but often-ignored part of being a great leader, and we explore that concept with this week’s guest Sylvia Acevedo.

Episode Notes

Manage Up Without Shutting Down (ft. Sylvia Acevedo)

The best leaders face risks head-on without letting them derail progress.

OPENING QUOTE:

“There are people who are really good at managing people and managing up, but not necessarily understanding how to manage risk. And so sometimes, I've seen this over and over, the way they manage risk is to shut something down. ”

—Sylvia Acevedo

GUEST BIO:

Sylvia Acevedo is a scientist who performed vital work on both the Voyager 2 and Solar Probe as well as an executive who has led Apple’s Asia Pacific operations and served in a leadership role at Dell. She’s also an accomplished entrepreneur, having founded two successful tech businesses (CommuniCard and REBA Technologies) on her way to being named one of Forbes Top 50 Women in Tech and Fast Company’s Top 100 Most Creative People in Business. Amidst it all, she advised the Obama White House, became CEO of the U.S. Girl Scouts, and currently serves on the board of Qualcomm. Sylvia was kindly introduced to us by Natfluence, a platform featuring top founders, CEOs and entrepreneurs.

Learn more about Sylvia Acevedo

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[07:51] - The Power of Deadlines

Set a date and watch inspiration come

When John F. Kennedy said, “We will reach the moon before the end of the decade,” there was a very crystallizing moment when everyone involved with the project sat a little straighter and focused a little harder. When you’re facing a somewhat amorphous goal, setting a deadline can help create a sense of focus, direction, and positive urgency.

[9:13] - Management vs. Leadership

It’s all about variables

Management involves knowing the variables and constraints and finding ways to help your team achieve the goals within that framework. True leadership comes when you can’t see all of the variables and constraints, but you still must find a way to achieve your end goal. How do you lead through uncertainty toward a desired outcome?

[14:18] - The New Confidence

Don’t know all the answers? Good.

In the traditional hierarchical model of leadership, leaders were supposed to say, “I know all the answers” with confidence. But now, true confidence in leadership is confidence in the people around you who collectively have more specific expertise than you might as their leader. That’s real confidence that leads to real results.

[25:50] - On the Other Side of Risk Lies Inspiration

‘Organizations that don’t risk don’t do anything’

Managing risk as a leader doesn’t mean avoiding it. When entrepreneurs move from the insulation of creative work and development into the world of figures, profit margins, shareholders, salaries, and ongoing growth, they often find themselves desperate to avoid any risk— so they become stagnant. But true leadership involves a great deal of managing risk, not eliminating it.

[36:43] - What You Give When You Ask for Help

It’s not just about hearing other voices

If you are a leader, don't forget to ask people for their ideas and give them space to develop them. If you're not a leader, you can ask colleagues for their ideas and swap ideas with them. This doesn’t just bring new ideas into a project, it also lets the people around you know that what they’re doing matters and their perspectives are valued, which can have measurable impact on their personal investment, productivity, and innovation.

RESOURCES:

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We'd love to hear your thoughts on today’s episode. Feel free to DM Chris on social or shoot him an email at chris@chrisroebuck.net.

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Episode Transcription

Sylvia Acevedo:

But there are people who are really good at managing people and managing up, but not necessarily understanding how to manage risk. And so sometimes, I've seen this over and over, the way they manage risk is to shut something down.

Chris Roebuck:

Welcome to Perspectives from the Top. I'm Chris Roebuck, global keynote speaker with unique leadership experience from military, business, and government, best selling author, and your guide to greater success. Together, we'll discover powerful insights from the world's leading thinkers, doers, and trailblazers, the must know trends, thought provoking revelations, and practical actions you can use immediately. This is your exclusive and personal shot of insight and inspiration to help you get to the top.

Chris Roebuck:

Welcome to you and all of our friends in the Perspectives from the Top community around the world. Today, I'm talking to someone whose work covers a vast range of different areas. As a scientist, she worked on the Voyager 2 and Solar Probe. As an executive, worked in Dell and ran Apple's Asia Pacific operations. As an entrepreneur, she was founder of two successful tech businesses, CommuniCard and REBA Technologies. She was on Forbes list of the top 50 women in tech, Fast Company's top 100 most creative people in business. She advised the Obama White House, and in 2017 became CEO of the US Girl Scouts, a role which she held until August 2020. She's now on the board of Qualcomm, the wireless tech manufacturer. And it's my great pleasure to welcome on behalf of all of our Perspectives community Sylvia Acevedo.

Chris Roebuck:

Sylvia, it is absolutely great that you can join us and share with us insights from your absolutely amazing career. Let's start off with one of the things that our listeners like to hear about is who has inspired guests on that journey that they've taken, particularly at the beginning, and often it's a boss, a mentor, or something like that. So who was it that sort of inspired your journey, and perhaps also given your amazing story, was there an element of the Girl Scouts in driving that inspiration?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Oh, thanks, Chris. I really appreciate the opportunity be on the show with you. You're an amazing leader, and I am really honored. So actually when I was really young, I devoured everything by Clara Barton and Florence Nightingale. Those were two women who were innovators. Also, Clara Barton, she started the American Red Cross. Also, she was the first one that created the first aid kit. And then Florence Nightingale used statistics to show how to do triage and really change the course of a war. So I thought of them as role models because they really were trailblazers. So when I was young, I devoured anything about them.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Then in my career, I was really fortunate to have a couple of really great bosses at Jet Propulsion Labs. My boss took me out, my second level boss would take me out once a month, go get some burgers and fries, and he would tell me, "You know, when I started on this journey, my professor said very few of you will ever make it. So you have to decide if you're going to be one of those." And he instilled that in me, to say, if you're going to go for something, you've got to believe that you can do it, and then don't let anything deter you. So that was really great advice.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Then another mentor took me aside, and once I had been having some success and I now was in Silicon Valley, he took me under his wing and he said, "Look, don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you're an anomaly. So when people see you, they don't immediately think rocket scientist, tech exec. So you've got to provide a bit of context to who you are so that they understand your qualifications." He goes, "Yeah, I know it's not fair, but it is what you have to deal with." And I really appreciated him saying that. And that really taught me a great communication skill of getting the context and leveling the context of where your audience is perceiving and expecting and how you can deliver. So those were very important on the professional side.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And then in Girl Scouts, you're absolutely right. I grew up in a family that really struggled economically. All my grandparents were from Mexico, lived in a Spanish speaking household very close to the US-Mexican border. And we lived on a dirt road. The last meningitis in the US epidemic hit our neighborhood, including my family, where my sister got sick and became developmentally disabled as a result of that. So I had all those struggles, but fortunately for me, I got involved with Girl Scouts and it taught me a lot about American institutions, culture, and mores. And that was really instrumental, and I think of that as an inflection point in my life.

Chris Roebuck:

I think it's interesting talking to leaders that it's not only the mentors or people they've met recently, it's actually going back to somewhere in childhood, in the early days of university, as with you, there was this spark created that then sent you off on this amazing life journey. And it's your comments about the criticality of belief, the importance of context in relation to explaining to people to make clear their expectations of you because, yeah, we're always stereotyping, which sort of links to the next question, which is certainly working for NASA is a scientific environment. You were focused on delivering Voyager and other projects. That's effectively in a safety critical environment, which is scientific safety critical, very different to a lot of commercial organizations.

Chris Roebuck:

And one is focused on purpose and public good, and the other one is focused more on making money. So over your career, you've been in both of those worlds. And how do you find people respond to those different ethoses? We're here for public good and scientific excellence, or hey, we're just here to make a lot of money.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Yes. You know, very different to understand the why. So that's so important to understand why is somebody there and what really motivates them. The other thing is in the mission, for example, with NASA, you have to be uncomfortable with a lot of uncertainty and work through the uncertainty, the trial and error, trying to figure out what could be. I mean, there's a universe of possibilities. I remember when I was working on the Solar Polar Solar Probe, which was early days, and we were going to send a vehicle like four million miles to the sun, and that's incredibly close. So you begin thinking about the world of possibilities.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And that is entirely different than in a commercial where you have metrics, you get measured on the metrics, you have specific goals, and you're really trying to overachieve those goals. In this case, yes, you do have an overarching mission, but within how you get there still has to be discovered. And that's kind of the joy of it, is how do you figure that out? And also, allowing people to try, to go down some rabbit holes, try different things, because you are in the element of discovery.

Sylvia Acevedo:

That said, deadlines are incredibly powerful. And I really do believe that in the US, when President Kennedy said, "We will reach the moon before the decade," that was a very crystallizing moment to really figure out how are we going to do this in just a decade. So that having a deadline is also very important, but realizing there is so much in terms of the world of discovery. So being able to motivate people, helping them understand why their role is important in figuring this out, that's incredibly important. That's also important in the commercial business, but there you have much tighter timelines and deadlines.

Chris Roebuck:

That's fascinating because it's an interesting thought that you're saying that to some degree, most people would say, oh, there's a lot of uncertainty in the commercial world, and in the scientific world, it's all facts and figures and we know what we're doing. But what you are saying is actually in the scientific world that you are working on, or in other scientific research, actually the level of uncertainty is greater than within a commercial organization, where there's more of a framework in terms of just, it's not just a vast open space that you are walking into with no framework.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Right. You have a sense of how many variables there are, and then you manage those variables. But I think that's a really great point, if you kind of expand on it, about the difference between management and leadership. Management is really when you have known variables, known constraints, and then you achieve the goals within that. But leadership is when you don't know the variables, you don't know the constraints, but yet you still achieve the goal. Now, that's real leadership.

Chris Roebuck:

Yes. And I think it's the degree to which, you talk about uncertainty in terms of the framework, but it's also uncertainty in terms of the dynamic of the situation. As an ex-military leader, one of the things is that the dynamic of the situation is that it is changing so fast that management to some degree doesn't work, because the frequency of the changes is such that leadership is the only thing that keeps everybody moving. But I find your point about why it's important to help people understand how they contribute, and people sometimes say, "Oh well, that's not terribly important. They don't need to be told," which is completely counterproductive, because you and I know that if people don't understand the big picture, they can't adapt.

Chris Roebuck:

And also, the statistics are quite clear that if you tell people how what they do contributes to the big picture, it can inspire them to give over 35% extra effort. So it's those simple things that you mentioned. So linking back to those areas that you've been in, do you think that there is a fundamentally different approach to leadership in the public scientific governmental sector versus the commercial sector, or do leaders, going to your point, do the same simple things? It's just the environment that's slightly changed?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Well, I think a good leader can be really successful in both, but there's also, in terms of what you're talking about, the environment, there are some environments that are much more hierarchical and there are some that are very distributed. And so sometimes you do need that hierarchical leadership. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to build the Panama Canal, right? That required a lot of big thinking, but very hierarchical leadership.

Sylvia Acevedo:

But now with what's happening as we move to a digital economy and the digital age, that's very distributed. And so how do you inspire and lead when it isn't as hierarchical? So that type of leadership is very different. And then in the scientific world, there's a lot of people that don't like to fall in line and be hierarchical at all. So helping them feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves and why their research or why their work matters is very important, but still allowing them to have a lot of agency around how they accomplish it is very key to success.

Chris Roebuck:

But would you say that now we're in 2021, you refer to the Panama Canal and the construction of that, but now we're in 2021. Would you not say that perhaps in any organization now, given the level of expertise that is required on a team, that potentially the team leader does not themselves have, and I suppose the societal change in terms of respect for leaders and the fact that leaders need to earn respect rather than just be given it, means that the old command and control model of leadership is pretty dead, and we are now looking at, wherever you are, a consensual approach to leadership?

Sylvia Acevedo:

There is that, but there is also folks that want the certainty when you are in uncertain times, like right now. And so it can be very almost seductive to have somebody who is very hierarchical to say, "I will make this work." However, as you mentioned, we are in a time and an age where the information is just being distributed and dispersed, and so being able to be confident as a leader that you don't know everything, but you can assemble a team of great people to take on big challenges, that I think is a really great hallmark of leadership now. So you've got to be confident. I don't know all, but I can assemble a great team that can attack that problem to solve it.

Chris Roebuck:

I think it's exactly that point you mentioned, which is the transition from the leader who says, "Yep. I'm the leader. I know all the answers," to the leader that's...

Chris Roebuck:

He says, "Yep. I'm the leader. I know all the answers." To the leader that says, "Actually, I don't know all the answers. But you are experts in your fields. And we, I, with your advice, will put together the answer."

Sylvia Acevedo:

Yes. And I think another great hallmark of leadership is pattern recognition, especially when you've had experience. Pattern recognition of maybe some things worked maybe in a hierarchical world, they don't necessarily work in a distributed world. But also, you see how people come together time and time again in different industries, and you're thinking, I saw that pattern here, I bet it can work here. And sure enough, you'll find that that could be successful. And I think that is an element of pattern recognition that great leaders have, that they have experience in a variety of industries. And maybe it's not uniquely the same or exactly the same, but the pattern recognition is solid enough that you say, mm, we're going to go this way.

Chris Roebuck:

If we look at leadership, at its most basic, what I think is interesting is that the research that I've seen, and the practical experience that I have observed in various organizations is that many organizations seem to be neglecting some of the most basic task delivery skills such as delegation and communication, assuming that the previous employer has given this to the person they've just recruited. And then they try and implement things around transformation, change management and whatever. And it doesn't go terribly well because those basic foundational capabilities are lacking. So, what's your view of that? Have you seen that happening? And those precursors for leadership success, I think that links, interestingly, to some of the work you did in the Girl Scouts when you took over as CEO in May 17. You started look looking at some of these really basic courses in terms of interacting with people, basic skills through the science, technology, engineering and math area.

Sylvia Acevedo:

You're absolutely right. We are in a very changed world. And so, how do you look at that? And what are the challenges when you are trying to get people to adapt to the rapidly changing world? Sometimes you can use as a hallmark how an organization or a company was founded, and how those tenets and values are still incredibly applicable today. And that's actually what I did. Julie Gordon Low, who started the Girl Scouts in the United States, some of her first badges were electrician, carpentry, pilots. And so, as I began to-

Chris Roebuck:

Sorry, pilot? Sylvia, how far back was that?

Sylvia Acevedo:

I know. It was in the late teens, early '20s.

Chris Roebuck:

Well, 1920s?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Yeah. She had one of the badges.

Chris Roebuck:

Seriously, a pilot badge for Girl Scouts and the girl guides? Wow.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Yeah, back then. So, it was really interesting because she was trying to help them get skills that they otherwise were not available to them. We were moving from an agrarian age to the industrial age. And so I helped the organization understand we were moving from the industrial age to the digital age. So that was a hallmark to exactly the kind of work that Julie Gordon Low did. So it was very much part of the Girl Scout ethos. And for the industrial age, yes, we had to have some core skills in terms of people, but we now had the majority of girls having a digital device in their hands, and they wanted to be more than just users of technology, but the creators and the inventors and the designers.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And not only that, women make up half of the world. And you need your input. If the world is being redesigned digitally, you've got to have your say. But if you don't have any familiarity with technology, then you're not able to be included, have your voice heard in that. And as we've seen, because of that, we've had some pretty disastrous results. I mean, the teen suicide rate for both boys and girls, but especially girls is just skyrocketing. So it's really important that you are there as a designer, as the engineer, as the entrepreneur, as the CEO, as the marketing person. It's not only just about revenue, it's also about responsibility and relevance.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And so I think helping your organization see that those values were very important and they aligned exactly with what the girls wanted. My last full year was in 2019 right before COVID struck. Over a million STEM badges were earned in things like cybersecurity, coding, robotics, automotive, and Girl Scouts became the largest national effort of STEM in rural and suburban environments at scale with positive outcomes. And that matched very much with what corporate America needs, and also what these girls wanted for themselves.

Sylvia Acevedo:

So how you get a 100+ year old organization to move in that direction and embrace it is, you show that it's tied to its legacy. You're not abandoning its legacy, but you're moving it forward in a way that's relevant. And actually, it speaks to the girls or to your target audience.

Chris Roebuck:

That's really powerful in that, taking that original founding concept of giving insight to girls, and of course, the Boy Scouts did it as well, giving insight into things that are for the future, which was what the organization was founded on, for taking girls and boys forward, is beautiful because it's what you've done for the next generation into the digital world, and also helping them develop their leadership. And I'm probably going to throw in, for our listeners, I'm warning you, I'm about to throw in a provocative point here. You were talking about the development of leadership and Girl Scouts and all the rest of it. There is, dare I say it, some evidence that might suggest that, as a group, given what people are looking for from leaders in the 21st century, women are occasionally, or shall we say, the evidence is that women are actually better leaders than men at certain points in their career. Now, what would you say? What would you comment about that, Sylvia, from your experience?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Well, at Girl Scouts, we used to say that almost all the US foreign tech leaders that were female were Girl Scouts. And then more than half of all the elected officials in Congress and senators were Girl Scouts. So there's something about that program that was, in terms of teaching leadership. But in terms of the broader audience of women, it's hard to make a sweeping judgment. But you do have that capability of listening, distributed ownership, moving more from a hierarchical. I mean, even as young girls, girls tend not to have hierarchical systems, they actually have much more web like or distributed friendship circles. So that very much fits in with what's going on. So I think there is a great opportunity for more women to take leadership positions. And if you think about it, we're half the world. So we should be there making decisions from that perspective as well.

Chris Roebuck:

But precisely, if you look at it from the overall leadership perspective, if you are cutting out the input of potentially half of the population, in terms of diversity of thought, it isn't necessarily the best way to do it.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Oh, absolutely. And as I was saying earlier, in terms of technology, what we're seeing for teens and young children, there are starting to be some really troubling consequences of not thinking about that. And you need to have more mama bears and papa bears who are very uniquely concerned about their children and their children's abilities. And just even being able to have strong mental health, that's something that hadn't been factored in. And I think there are going to be a lot of people who are very concerned about that. And specifically moms, women, who have that technology background would be very useful to be leaders in that organization and to stand up, and to make some decisions that are not just only about revenue, but are about responsibility and repercussions.

Chris Roebuck:

Yes. And a quick note for listeners. Having made a provocative comment, I promise you that at the end, in my summary, I will give you the references to that study, and they will be in the show notes. So I am not making it up, listeners. These are researched data there. So on your move, through your career, you're an entrepreneur. You founded REBA Technology, CommuniCard. So not only do you have the sort of tech skills, but you have the entrepreneurial skills. And you're obviously a good leader as well. And what I find interesting is that, having looked at that combination, there are people out there who are sort of okay corporate leaders, but not very entrepreneurial. There are entrepreneurs who are great when they start up, but as things start to expand, their leadership capability reaches a limit. I won't quote specific corporate cases where people have founded major organizations and effectively been thrown off their own boards. But we all know who they are.

Chris Roebuck:

So from your perspective then, how important is it perhaps to be able to get entrepreneurs to be better leaders to take their organizations forward, but also for corporate leaders to be more entrepreneurial, to inject some form of inspiration and opportunity hunting into their worlds?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Those are great paths. And you're right, frequently, they do not cross. So the entrepreneur, this is so fantastic, they take on risks and they kind of don't hear no. And we're actually kind of grateful. They move society sometimes because of that. However, you're right, not hearing no, they have incredibly sharp elbows, incredibly thick skin. And there comes a time when whatever they've developed comes in the world and they need to have feedback. They need to redirect it. And that's incredibly difficult for them to hear. And you can really see that. Sometimes that entrepreneur is really great to launch an idea and get it to the 10 million, but not to the 50 million. Or there's an entrepreneur with enough skills and enough ability to be able to manage that risk and take it to half a billion.

Sylvia Acevedo:

But as you've mentioned, getting that entrepreneur to go from half a billion to really running a major global organization is incredibly challenging. And it's very rare to have both of those traits of being able to be a great leader, inspiring, being able to manage a global organization, and also having that entrepreneurial ability. Now on the other side, in terms of corporate, there are people who are really good at managing people and managing up, but not necessarily understanding how to manage risk. And sometimes, I've seen this over and over, the way they manage risk is to shut something down.

Chris Roebuck:

Exactly. Yes.

Sylvia Acevedo:

I know. And I think that's-

Chris Roebuck:

No risk is a great thing. I'm sorry. It just means the organization doesn't do anything.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Exactly. And so how do you manage that risk for the benefit of the organization? Sometimes that's where the greatest returns are. But a lot of corporate leaders do not feel comfortable with that. And so, their organizations miss out on these great opportunities. So you do need to have that risk kind of profile and that understanding. But then also, how do you work with people? How do you work with big teams of people? How do you get them inspired? That, sometimes, is something that the entrepreneur just sees as bureaucracy, red tape, why do I need their buy-in type of thing? So getting that kind of balance.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Now, that said, in terms of risk management, I think corporations can do a lot to help their leaders understand that an appetite for risk is not a negative thing. And how do you best manage it for the benefit of the organization? And I think that's what Silicon Valley has done incredibly well. It's allowed that ethos of, you've failed, it's not seen as a stigma. It's like, okay, you tried two, three things that didn't work. But yet this next thing is going to work. And along the way, you've gained incredible skills. And I think Steve Jobs is a great illustration of that because he literally was kicked off his board, the company he founded. But he went and started again, learned a lot of skills and came back.

Chris Roebuck:

Exactly.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Exactly. Apple is this global success.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. And what is interesting though, you are not, and I absolutely do not want to downplay the value of risk professionals in organizations. But I have heard, and we had Peter Wuffli, ex chief executive of UBS, the global bank, who made the same point in terms of his perspective of organizations. That actually, in some cases, risk can effectively stifle opportunity and entrepreneurial thinking in organizations. And it's about the ability of leaders to optimize risk within a reasonably safe framework, but still allow entrepreneurial-

Chris Roebuck:

... reasonably safe framework, but still allow entrepreneurial thinking. But it's also, I think about people who you would call managers actually accepting that people must be able to make mistakes within a safe environment and not create a blame culture, because otherwise, it's stifles anybody doing anything.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Right. Absolutely. You're right. In terms of risk management, there are those guardrails, but those guardrails need to be very distinct and then allow a lot of opportunity. I think one of my favorite quotes is, "Failure is first attempt in learning, F-A-I-L, first attempt in learning." And I think for a lot of companies, a lot of managers think they have the expertise and don't want to fail. And if you help them see that if you are trying something new, it's an opportunity to try something that maybe a customer might actually like.

Sylvia Acevedo:

One of the ways I really was able propel my career forward, especially in the sales world, was whenever I was responding to an RFP, I would provide two RFPs. One was exactly with what they wanted, down to the specifications, but one was perhaps more edgy, more innovative, and it wasn't what the specs said. And time and time again, the customer chose the most innovative one. And people would say, "Well, wow! Why?" For example, put in Latin America, two of the first fiber optic FDDI networks, I led the sale and the installation of those. And people said, "Well, but wow, that's not what was required in the RFP." That was basic ethernet, but we provided high-speed fiber network. So I provided one RFP, which was the ethernet, and then the other one, which was high-speed fiber network, and everyone chose that one. And so people were like, "Wait, how did that happen?"

Sylvia Acevedo:

But I found that in my career as well. Whenever there was an opportunity at work, they'd say, "Here's what we need." And I would think, "Okay, here's what would solve the problem, but maybe here's something that would be a little bit more distinctive and more innovative." And a lot of times in the company, they'd say, "Well, I'll take that." And I remember some of my peers would say, "Well, you didn't tell us we could put in another perspective." And I'm like, "Well, he didn't tell couldn't either." And that really helped propel my career forward, and really gave me a reputation of being really innovative and a unique problem solver.

Chris Roebuck:

That's a really powerful point for our listeners, because although to some degree, you're talking about this in terms of RFPs and interaction with other organizations, the core concept of saying in this situation, "The predictable thing we should be doing is X, but I can actually see an opportunity to do something that might be more innovative, might be better." And that doesn't have to be at C-suite level. That can be at any level. If you're listening and you are looking at doing something, and you've been given what you could be described as a standard brief, but you can see a better way of doing it, you can see a more innovative way, or you can see another option that is even better for the person that you have been asked to supply whatever it is to, you can do exactly the same as Sylvia has said.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Absolutely. It's really important that you provide an answer in exactly the format they wanted, because otherwise they think you didn't hear them. And so you've got to show that, "Yeah, I heard you loud and clear. And in addition to that, here's another solution."

Sylvia Acevedo:

And when I did that as a new engineer at IBM, we put in some changes in the manufacturing line, and the same thing. One of my first jobs, they gave me this small manufacturing redesign, and everyone is like, "Status quo, just do it this way." But actually, I went and talked to the workers and they wanted working surfaces that could be adjusted. So during the morning when they had a lot more energy, they'd stand up, around lunch, they'd sit down. Then you could adjust the height of it. Just getting their input, their production soared. Those working tables didn't really cost that much more, but boy, the production soared. And that set me up for the next big project coming up that I got, even though I was a pretty new engineer, but they thought, "Well, boy, we really liked how you were very innovative here. Imagine what you could do with a blank canvas."

Sylvia Acevedo:

So again, you answer it so that people understand, "I understand. You feel heard." They felt heard, you understand the scope of the proposal, but in addition to that, here's what some other opportunities might be.

Chris Roebuck:

And if we flip that round, looking at it from the perspective of leaders, as you said, with a team on a production line or whatever, what is really, really powerful about that is if you, as a leader, ask people for their ideas in terms of, "Look, this is what we have got to do, but can anybody think of a slicker, better, more innovative way of doing this? Or actually, doing something that gets us to the same outcome, but is more innovative?" That simple action, as you said there in terms of your experience, motivates people, as well as getting the ideas. And the data I suggested is if leaders ask people for their ideas, it can get them an extra 30% more effort, because just that action of asking people for their ideas shows you trust them and that you believe in them. And that makes them think, "Wow, this is a leader I can give more to."

Sylvia Acevedo:

Absolutely. For whatever reason, they'd gotten out of the practice of talking to the manufacturing line workers. And they were very eager to contribute, because it would make their life better. And as you said, production soared as a result of that, because they were able to give their input and they felt heard.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. And I think I need to make it clear to listeners, this applies in any organization doing anything anywhere. This is not just the manufacturing world. And absolutely, our experience at UBS in terms of trying to create a new way of working within the banking world, to create a single organization without silos, one of the things we did was to say, "We want to get your ideas." And for many of those people, given the structured type of organization a bank is, nobody had ever asked them in their career to think differently, to be innovative. And actually, for some people, it was like a light had come down from the stars. And as a result of that, people who had never really been given that freedom to think embraced it wholeheartedly. And some of the more experienced people who combined experience and network and innovation, produced amazing results when they were given the opportunity to think and contribute.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Absolutely. I know I've had that experience and you certainly have had that experience in your career as well, Chris.

Chris Roebuck:

But it is such a great feeling that you can see yourself unleashing the potential of others, and the satisfaction on their faces that they realize that they are truly contributing.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Oh, absolutely. And that particular example in manufacturing, it was suddenly all the big bosses wanted to come by and say, "Wow, this used to be a problem area. And now, it's beating its production numbers. What happened here?" And so the workers felt a tremendous amount of pride, because they had been feeling like they just were doing their job and no one was paying attention. And instead, they found that what they were doing was really important to the company.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. So listeners, if you are a leader, don't forget to ask people for their ideas and give them space to give them to you and develop them. But even if you're not a leader, you can ask colleagues for their ideas and swap ideas with them. It's all about this we, not me, culture being best for you, the team, the organization.

Chris Roebuck:

Sylvia, your success as a woman in male-dominated organizations has been great to behold, but therefore, what would you say having had this success, what would you say to a young woman about the potential for a great career, but also the challenges of a career in science and engineering? And also, do you think there is still in society, a fundamental issue with girls and boys being directed by parents, educators, and society into certain careers?

Sylvia Acevedo:

I'll start with the latter and then go to the former. So in terms of parents and societal expectations, absolutely. There's research that's been done that even if a girl is known to be the most tech savvy at her home; she's the one that is always figuring out how to make the network run, work on the computers and get every latest app on the phone; if there's a problem, technology-wise, even if her parents say, "She's good at that," and they have a son, they will always ask the son. And he may not be any good at it. And they will say, "Yes, my daughter is good," but they will still ask their son. So that is a really powerful message that that girl gets, as well as society.

Sylvia Acevedo:

In addition, a lot of the curriculum around STEM has been really focused on, how do you get boys to get interested in it? And how boys learn and lead, that's different than how girls learn and lead. And so, you've got curriculum that doesn't engage girls as much, but if you put it in a framework that they like that engages them, then they will learn and lead. And I'll just give a quick example. One of the things we did at Girl Scouts is people said, "How are you getting girls interested in cybersecurity?" And then, "How do you get seven- and eight-year-old girls interested in malware and physical networking?"

Sylvia Acevedo:

Well, if you talk about malware and physical networking, in a pretty short order, those girls will not pay attention to you. But if you get the of girls to sit in a circle and talk with one another, which they love to do at that age, give them a mobile of yarn, which then they pass to one another as they're talking to one another, in a very short amount of time, you basically have created a physical network because that yarn has gone to all the girls. Then you say, "One of the girls has a virus, but yet, in short order, even though she didn't talk to all the girls, everyone on that network got the virus." And you can see then with that physical network that they've created, they can see how viruses spread. They understand that first physical level of a network is that physical connection. And so, you've got two very important topics of cybersecurity done in a couple of minutes with the girls, and they get really engaged.

Sylvia Acevedo:

So what's so important to get girls interested in STEM or science is first, you have to interest them, and then you have to get the confidence, and then you build on the confidence. The challenge is so much of the STEM curriculum has been developed and designed around how boys learn, lead, and think. A lot of times, girls approach things a little bit different. So in that case, that was a very distributed way of leadership, of learning a topic of physical networking in malware, but it was incredibly successful. It doesn't diminish the topic, it just teaches it in a different way that's engaging. So, we did that. And when we did, basically rewriting a lot of STEM curriculum, amazing success. Millions of girls got interested in it. And in cybersecurity, over 180,000 badges in 2019 were earned. I mean, that's phenomenal.

Chris Roebuck:

That's amazing.

Sylvia Acevedo:

It is.

Chris Roebuck:

That's absolutely amazing.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And it's because we rewrote it, but again, there is so much curriculum that isn't done that way, and also societal expectations.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Now, for girls and women getting into STEM careers, yes, it is challenging. I won't deny that at all. So it is a culture that's sharp elbows. You got to get the data. When I was younger, I'd say math was my super power. And I remember working at NASAs Jet Proportion Laboratory, and people having the audacity to want to check my math. I was like, "No, you don't go there." So you have to really own it, and you have to own that you belong there, and you have to realize that it is very much a culture where if you want your voice heard, you've got to make your voice heard.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Now, Chris, I will say that having a career that allowed me to develop those types of behaviors, of not letting people talk over me. When I needed to get my voice and my point across, sometimes you'd have to interrupt people. That behavior did serve me well, but I will say that when I went to be the CEO of the Girl Scouts of the USA, that same behavior did not serve me well at all; interrupting, talking over people were non-starters. So there is something, there is-

Sylvia Acevedo:

We're non-starters. So there is something to that culture as well. And it isn't just that typical behavior, but it's also realizing that many times you've got to understand what is it that the boss is thinking? What is it that... How do you work with others? I saw my male peers, they would all know what the boss wanted out of that meeting. And I know me and my female peers would walk into a meeting and kind of we're all trying to figure this out. So being smart about how your organization makes decisions. How does information flow? Making sure you're in the middle of that. I grew up in a household where girls were not supposed to speak until they were spoken to, until you were an adult. So, it was learned behavior that it was important that culture of how do you make your voice heard within that culture?

Sylvia Acevedo:

It's very important that you figure out how do you succeed in that. And then later on when I was working in the White House, I found that a lot of the women had really good points. But other people, particularly men would capitalize on their idea and take it as their own. And so I asked the women and I said, "Let's all amplify.". And it's something that Valerie Jarrett had done in the Obama White House, which is amplify one another. So it's like, hey John, you made a great point. But when Sally said that, I think she... Not only did she say it first, I think she had a little bit more context to it. So you were able to amplify one another.

Chris Roebuck:

Love it.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And I think that's also very important is to get allies and they don't have to just be women. You can also get male allies to make sure that if you have a point of view or a perspective that you have other people that can support it as well.

Chris Roebuck:

The point about mutual support is really key at that level. But going to your core point, I would say I have seen exactly that at ages 27 to maybe 40. Girls who have the capability might not have the confidence to push themselves forward. Whereas some men who have the confidence but not the capability, push themselves forward. And in terms of the sort of journey to CEO, I think the... Yes, promote yourself and champion yourself till you get to CEO. But once you get to CEO, I think it's more about the listening and the team produces answers in many cases. So link to that, your comment about... I think it goes back to the belief thing. So looking over your successful career then, what do you see perhaps as your greatest achievement? And what is your secret to getting the best from people?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Well, I don't have just one [inaudible 00:45:02] but I feel really fortunate that-

Chris Roebuck:

You have so many. We would be here for an hour and a half if you were listing them.

Sylvia Acevedo:

I've been really, really fortunate. Obviously it's a highlight to have worked on two missions, the Voyager, and also Solar Probe. So I'm really grateful for that experience. Being an entrepreneur and having your company successfully sold, I think was another highlight. And then working in when I decided as I like to say, I took a break from working in the commercial space and the business world and went into the nonprofit space. And using my powers for good, scaling, thinking about how do you really create solutions that reach many people. Yeah. A quarter of a million books distributed 10,000 home libraries started. But one of the things that I think still gives me a smile every time I think about it is Vision. 1 in 10 kids in a low income school in the US is likely never to get their vision corrected because of access to getting glasses.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And so we got a vision [inaudible 00:46:13] in central Texas. And it got staffed volunteered, and 11,000 glasses were created. So that's 11,000 kids. And I was there when many of them got their glasses, and to see their face just brighten up.

Chris Roebuck:

That's amazing.

Sylvia Acevedo:

It was something that... Because if you don't know what it's like to have good vision, you don't know what you're missing. And so that to me was a huge hallmark. And then it, on the White House, we were able to change dual language policy at the federal level, which is great. But Girl Scouts, making sure that a lot of girls got tools and access to tools that will help give them a competitive advantage or a leg up on life, makes me feel really, really good. And you know that emotion part, I remember flying into Wichita, Kansas. Right after an ice storm, there was still ice on the ground.

Sylvia Acevedo:

And we were having an event. And this man, he was there with his daughter and his wife. And his wife said he drove four hours in an ice storm. And I said, "Sir, we're all about safety in Girl Scouts.". So. And he said, "You don't know much about Kansas, do you?" I said, "No, sir. I don't.". He said, well our heyday was right after World War II, and lots of manufacturing jobs. We've since lost all those jobs. There's a rampant opioid epidemic. And he said so bringing my daughter here, where she's getting this STEM, science, technology, engineering, math skills, the leadership skills is giving her a leg up on life. He said it would be less safe to stay home. And wow. That I still think about that man. I still think about his family. And that to me made me realize just the power of making sure you reach all communities, rural, urban, and suburban with tools. Because every parent wants the best for their life. And he wanted to set her up to give her as he said, a leg up on life.

Chris Roebuck:

Well [inaudible 00:48:12], I think my listeners, our perspectives from the top community around the world would agree. It's not only the achievements that you have delivered, from space flight to glasses for people who have impaired vision across US. It's the fact that you've done it is an inspiration to other girls that they can do it as well. So finally, what is one thing that... One thing that you would say to everybody about how they can be better at work? And one thing that you would say that a leader should do to make them a better leader?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Absolutely. No matter where you are in the organization, tie what you're doing to the company's success and give yourself a sound bite. Figure out the sound bite of how do you explain it. So you aren't just a manufacturing line inspector. You are the person that makes sure that the customer is getting the exact experience that they're paying for. So now that's different than saying I'm a manufacturing line experience. You're like, no I'm in charge of making sure that we are delighting customers. Wow. Right. Because you're making sure that the quality is there. If you're an engineer you're not just doing design, you're making sure that something is relevant, that it's safe. You're protecting that company. And you're providing the products that customers are craving. That's a whole different way of describing your job. So figure out wherever it is, accounting, finance, engineering, marketing, and say what is it we're trying to achieve in our company? And how does this fit into that?

Sylvia Acevedo:

And not in a job description kind of way, but value creation. So if you do that, that is so compelling. And you... Not only does it describe your job better, but you feel better because you're now tied to the mission of that company. And then in terms of leaders, wow. Chris you've already said a lot of these great things, but it's so important to remind people, what is our goal? What are we trying to do here? And remind people because it's not just the same old, same old Groundhog day. Here's what we're trying to do. Here's why it's different today. Here's the circumstances we're facing and here's how we're going to hard our resources to join in this together.

Sylvia Acevedo:

So communication incredibly key. But for CEOs, remind people of the why. I always... It's one of the things when I read something coming from a company or I'm listening to CEO, I'll say, so what's the so what? And when you're the CEO, you've got to tell the so what for your entire enterprise. You are doing this because your company is creating the best semiconductors or the best technology or solving communications challenges, or eating... Many kids who would never have food, whatever it is. But remind... Whenever you're talking about a new product introduction, what you're doing, tie it into the so what of what your company is trying to achieve.

Chris Roebuck:

That's Brilliant. Thank you so much for that Sylvia. I sum it up in terms of what you said, but interestingly, what every other of our guests has said, who's been a CEO. It is about being clear about the purpose, which then creates the belief across the organization, which then creates this we not me culture, that drives everybody and inspires everybody together. Thank you. Thank you so much, Sylvia. We have hardly touched on some of the amazing achievements you've had over your career. And I could spend another hour talking to you about what you did at NASA, let alone the Girl Scouts. It has been a pleasure. How can listeners learn more about you and your story? You have your book Path to the Stars out there?

Sylvia Acevedo:

Yeah. I have a middle school memoir. It's in English and Spanish. Path to the Stars, in Spanish [Spanish 00:52:33]. It's available Amazon, Barnes and Noble. The other thing is my name, sylviaacevedo.org. I have a website. I do a lot of corporate speaking and I'm also proudly on the [inaudible 00:52:46] board of directors. So. And also LinkedIn. And as I like to say, I Google extremely high. So it's easier to find me.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, given everything I'm not surprised. Sylvia, I can say it has been an absolute pleasure delving into... I thought my career was varied, but I... Sorry. I admit complete defeat on that one. Thank you so much, listeners. Yes. You are going to have some time. I suggest you listen to this podcast for at least two occasions to get out all the lessons. But I will also be giving you my reflections in Reflections on the Top in a week's time after this is released. But once again, Sylvia, thank you so much.

Sylvia Acevedo:

Thank you very much, Chris.

Chris Roebuck:

I love Sylvia's blend of insights created from such a wide range of experiences. The importance of visible leadership, why communication must be clear about what's going on and why. To develop permission to fail to enable innovation. And how as a woman in an often male dominated business world, you need to be confident and persistent in promoting your credibility. So have a think about what you can use in terms of Sylvia's ideas from this episode to help you get better done what you need to get done and get to where you want to be. But don't forget that in a week, I will give you a more in depth view of the key takeaways from Sylvia. My insights, and three ideas for action in my reflections on the top mini pod. And I'd also like to thank John founder at Natfluence.com For introducing Sylvia to us.

Chris Roebuck:

Thanks for tuning in, check out the show notes from today's episodes at perspectivesfromthetop.com. Where you can not only enjoy additional resources from today's show, but all previous ones. If you haven't already subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. So you don't miss any. And if you really enjoyed the show, please give us a five star rating and review. Have a question or comment let's discuss it. Message me on LinkedIn, Perspectives from the Top is produced in collaboration with Detroit Podcast Studios. So have a successful week, use today's new learnings and actions, and remember it's onwards and upwards. See you next time on Perspectives from the Top.