Perspectives from the Top

People + Principles = Sustainable Success (ft. Mathias Imbach)

Episode Summary

Mathias Imbach’s career has spanned the globe and a wide spectrum of organizations — and unique approaches to business. Discover what he’s learned about at every step of the journey

Episode Notes

People + Principles  = Sustainable Success (ft. Mathias Imbach) (ft. Mathias Imbach)

Mathias Imbach’s journey from Switzerland to India and back — and what he’s learned along the way.

OPENING QUOTE:

“A key success factor for us to check whether we are successful is whether people or stakeholders enjoy working with us. And that is not just the clients or investors. It's also the media, it's the suppliers we're working with on the IT and other ways. It's the people that help us in the office management, help clean, et cetera. Anyone.”

—Mathias Imbach

GUEST BIO:

Mathias Imbach began his journey with his degree at St. Gallen University, where his involvement with the school’s international symposium led to growing contacts in India that kickstarted his career. He spent time in India with Tata and then completed his MSC at London School of Economics and Duke, then worked with Bain & Company for six years where he led advisory projects for private equity funds, family offices, and technology companies. 

Mathias then returned to Tata as general manager at RNT Associates, Mr. Ratan Tata's personal investment platform, where he led multiple venture capital and private equity investments and participated in global, blockchain related equity deals. In March 2018, he became CEO of Sygnum Bank, the first digital bank in the world. Mathias also holds a PhD from the University of St. Gallen.

CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:

[14:06] - Love What’s Before You

Lessons learned in the military and India

A saying in India roughly translates to the idea that whatever is before you, make it into the best outcome for you— even be grateful for it. In his time in the military, Mathias learned that adaptation is about endurance and persistence. Whatever comes, move through it and make it a part of your journey. That’s the best path toward success.

[16:56] - Data & Instincts

From Bain to Tata, from numbers to the entrepreneurial spirit

Both Bain and Tata brought Mathias priceless insights into organizational leadership and entrepreneurship. At Bain, he learned the importance of professionalism and precision in task management, communication, and stakeholder relationships. At Tata, he learned that facts and data won’t get you all the way when running a business. You need trust, instincts, and a willingness to lead with your heart at times. 

[21:54] - A Culture of Entrepreneurship

Discussing the societal startup spirit of India

As a culture, Mathias speaks to the Indian people’s willingness and skill at coming together and building something from the ground-up. It’s made the country one of the most incredible incubators for new startups in the world, to the point that many people are leaving established enterprises to work in riskier roles at startups there.

[25:02] - Leading Big & Thinking Small

Implementing startup principles in large enterprises

To Mathias, the difference between big-business thinking and startup thinking is imagination. When you don’t have established processes, cultural inertia, and other roadblocks, you can turn your organization into anything you can imagine. By bringing some of that open-mindedness to established businesses, we can reinvigorate them and perhaps discover opportunities we might otherwise have missed.

[40:16] - Key Principles for Business Success

Mathias on attracting investors & inspiring people

Be genuine, Mathias says. “I'm just really trying to be myself and to be genuine, and to also have the willingness to show weakness when I am weak or when I don't like something to just be honest and transparent and direct.” He also says that you have to truly believe in what you’re doing as more than just a path to profits. Your clients and stakeholders will embrace your passion themselves. Finally, put culture above everything. Cultures create legacies.

[45:51] - People First

From top to bottom, focus on how people experience your organization

From employees, clients and investors to the media, suppliers, IT, and people who clean the offices— if you’re successful at making positive experiences for people, then your organization will be successful as a whole. 

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Episode Transcription

Mathias Imback:

A key success factors for us to check whether we are successful is whether people or stakeholders enjoy working with us. And that is not just the clients or investors. It's also the media, it's the suppliers we're working with on the IT and other ways. It's the people that help us in the office management, help clean, et cetera. Anyone.

Chris Roebuck:

Welcome to Perspectives from the Top. I'm Chris Roebuck, global keynote speaker with unique leadership experience from military, business and government. Bestselling author and your guide to greater success. Together we'll discover powerful insights from the world's leading thinkers, doers and trailblazers. The must know trends, thought provoking revelations and practical actions you can use immediately. This is your exclusive and personal shop of insight and inspiration to help you get to the top.

Chris Roebuck:

Welcome to you and all of our Perspectives from the Top community, now in 46 countries across the world. It's great to share the insights of such successful people with you to help you get to where you want to be. Today's guest is Mathias Imback. Now Mathias started his journey with his degree at St. Gallen University, where his involvement with the international symposium there led to growing contacts in India that started his career developing over there. He spent time in India with Tata and then completed his MSC at London School of Economics and Duke, and then worked with Bain & Company for six years where he led advisory projects for private equity funds, family offices, and technology companies. Mathias then returned to Tata as general manager at RNT Associates, Mr. Ratan Tata's personal investment platform, where he led multiple venture capital and private equity investments and participated in blockchain related equity deals globally. In March 2018, he became CEO of Sygnum Bank, the first digital bank in the world. And he also holds a PhD from the University of St. Gallen.

Chris Roebuck:

So Mathias, welcome to Perspectives from the Top. Now, one of the things our listeners love to hear about is somebody who is a sort of catalyst that started the guest on the journey they went on to get to where they are now, sometimes a family member, a mentor or whatever. Now, I'm going to ask you the question. Did you in your career have somebody like that? Now, I know that you in particular had somebody who was very special, who a massive impact on your career, but let's leave that particular person out and keep guessing as to who that might be, but was there anybody else that helped you on your journey?

Mathias Imback:

Yeah, I obviously know whom you're referring to, but if you specifically ask me to not talk about-

Chris Roebuck:

Not, yet. Not yet.

Mathias Imback:

So, that note, I will probably go back to the very start and would name my grandparents actually. Because I grew up in Switzerland, in around Bern and my parents had me when they were very young, both still kind of studying. My father was becoming jet pilot in the army, was gone a lot. And my mother then often, I basically was also brought up by my grandparents in Brienz, in the Bernese Oberland, close to the Swiss Alps. And I think they very profoundly impacted me and my character, I would say. And I very much look up to them in terms of the humbleness, the hardworking attitude, just generally being happy and content with what life has given them. And so in that sense, I think they at the very core, impacted me at the very beginning of my career in my formational years. So I would actually go for them.

Chris Roebuck:

So were you actually brought up in Brienz then?

Mathias Imback:

Yes, about 50, 60% of my time in my very early years. Yes.

Chris Roebuck:

So, for our listeners who don't know Switzerland or Brienz, Brienz is a beautiful traditional Swiss village on the side of an absolutely amazing blue lake in the middle of Switzerland with mountains and forests all around. And I cannot think of many places that would be more beautiful to grow up than that. So if you want to know more listeners, and you want to go and visit Brienz, just Google it. So, then you sort of went to St. Gallen to do your first degree in business. But what I find interesting was that to some degree, in terms of where you got to where you are now, it wasn't necessarily the degree itself that got you here, but the fact that you ended up becoming the head of the organizing committee for the St. Gallen International Symposium. Now most listers might not have heard of that particular symposium and its significant profile. So just give us a little bit of an insight into how the symposium works and how it ended up taking you to India.

Mathias Imback:

Yeah. So the St. Gallen symposium is run by the international students committee, which is a body made out of students in the second, third, fourth year of their studies at the University of St. Gallen. And the concept is really now for more than 50 years, where the leaders of today meet the leaders of tomorrow. So you have around 1000 people coming together every year, 800 decision makers. This will be politicians, business leaders, founders, academics, and they come together with 200 very selected students from around 60 to 70 countries every year. And these students are selected by, at least at the time when I was running, it was the world's largest students essay competition. So there were thousands of applications, very high profile, then selection body, which then would kind of go through these and they would then be invited.

Mathias Imback:

And then it's also called the three days in May where people come together and it's still today has a very special place in my heart. Actually last year was the year when I closed the circle. So I initially started as a helper in the support crew. The team is actually supported by about 200 students, also from the University of St. Gallen. Then for two years, I was in the organizing committee, one of the years I was running it with a very close now also friend of mine. Then later I was co-head the alumni committee, and now last year was invited as a speaker. So I really did the whole circle, and we'll also be back in two weeks again there. So I'm a big fan. Now, how did it bring me to India? In fact, I was a naive 19 or 18, 19 year old student, just after my first year at studies at the university. And I got interested by this symposium and applied for it, got accepted, and then suddenly I was told you will be our India relationship manager. And that was it. So that was then the beginning of quite a journey.

Chris Roebuck:

So, because you were the India relationship manager, you went over to India and you had a mission to find both sponsors and speakers. And you set your sights on one particular individual that you thought would be good. Tell us who that was and how you were quite entrepreneurial in getting to meet this individual. Because they've actually subsequently significant impacted your career. So tell us about how you hunted down that person.

Mathias Imback:

Yeah. Look, what actually happened, what I said before was really true. I did not know anything about India. I was very naive at just figuring out, "Okay, I'll do a first trip to just find out how things are on the ground." And after about two, three days on round, I just realized that pretty much everything seems to be Tata related. So from the cars, the lorries on the street, to hotels, to the biggest IT consulting company, Tata Consultancy Services, to steel, to water, I could go on. From salt to software, as one says. And so I really then just had this strong wish that we have to have Mr. Tata, the chairman of Tata Sons, holding in Switzerland, in St. Gallen, and also wanted to make the group because I could really identify with the values that they stood for as a key member of the circle of benefactors.

Mathias Imback:

And so that defined the target for me to meet Mr. Tata and hopefully to convince him to come to St. Gallen. And that is obviously not easy because he has about three, four layers of secretaries and chief of staff, et cetera, which by now have become friends. But at that point, that was not the case around him. And I could write letters and emails and call, that all did not help. So what I did was basically leveraging the network that the organization already had. I literally would actually create a network map, writing down with a mind map who knows whom and whom do I have to call, just to find out when Mr. Tata will be where. And that was particularly targeting certain events where there would be a bit more access. And there's the Chamber of Indian Industries, a CII, where I knew that at one time in Calcutta actually, he would have a speech and then there would be a lunch for which he would be staying.

Mathias Imback:

And so I made sure through my other network that at least I could sit, not obviously at the same table, but close by. And there was a pattern that typically he would leave earlier so that he wouldn't get flocked with everyone around him trying to speak to him. And when he got up, I just ran to him and told him, "Mr. Tata, I'm a TS from Switzerland. I would just want to speak to anywhere in the world at any point in time for five minutes," whether he would grant me this. And I was very nervous and he laughed and somehow, the whole body language and just how that encounter happened, he then said, "Sure, here is the [inaudible 00:10:42] number," which was his main PA. "And call her, and we'll find five minutes," and about a week later or so I then met him in Delhi, in one of the Tata's hotels.

Mathias Imback:

He was four hours late, waited there, and that was then the first meeting. And in my first meeting, I then asked him to come to St. Gallen, also for a significant sum of money to support initiative. And two weeks later, he then confirmed, invited me for lunch in Bombay also to meet some of his support colleagues, and then he indeed came to St. Gallen. And nobody believed me, actually. Only once the money hit the account, then even the foundation and my team colleagues, they actually believed me. And you may laugh, a very funny, little thing that actually was a moment that just was interesting was that he noticed when I took notes that I'm lefthanded, and he is a left hand as well. So he noted that, it was a casual start to the conversation. I think we hit it off from the very first meeting and since then has then obviously become a mentor and later also a boss.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah, that's an amazing story, but also, I think, there's an interesting lesson there for listeners about the value of doing proper network maps. Doing a mind map of your network and who knows who, because we actually can access more people than we think we can when we actually sit down and plan it. So around that time, because you are a Swiss citizen, you will have spent a little bit of time in the military. And some of our guests who've also spent time in the military say that sort of some of the structures and processes by which the military ensures effective delivery and how the military trains leaders to operate under pressure have been a benefit to them when they're in the non-military world after their military service. So, you've done that yourself. Have you found that the leadership skills and the task execution capability given to you during your military training is of continuing value to you? And have you looked at people who haven't perhaps had that training and seen that in particularly, perhaps pressurized environments, you found it easier to a cope than they have?

Mathias Imback:

I mean, I can certainly confirm while sometimes in the moment, during the training and during that army time, it was not always just happy times, right? And I must admit sometimes I was ready to go home, but in hindsight, and then also towards the end, also with the leadership training that we got, et cetera, and the camaraderie that was formed around it, I'm very, very thankful and happy that I had the privilege of serving. Now, how did it help me? I would say certainly, I think people do say that I'm quite resilient and don't crack under pressure and stay calm when things are really a bit heated. And I do feel, not all of this I learned in the army, but I certainly think it contributed significantly. And so in that sense, yes.

Mathias Imback:

Also things like to be happy with small things sometimes, right? Just to deal with, in India, one would say, [foreign language 00:14:16]. Just with whatever is there, you just deal with it and you make it the best outcome for you, and the team not asking for too much and also just to have endurance and persistence. And in that sense, yes. I'm very thankful for that. Do I see some other colleagues or people I interact with that have also undergone military trainings that also have these threats? Very much. So, in fact, some of the biggest talents at Sygnum have also gone through that, now that I'm reflecting over it, but I also know others who have not done military training and who are equally good leaders. So I wouldn't want to now say there's 100% correlation, but it certainly is a big contributor. And I'm very thankful that I could learn from it.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. I think the perspective of other guests is that it's a sort of foundation upon which you can base your leadership growth and it perhaps makes it easier for you to become a better leader with that foundation.

Mathias Imback:

Yes. That's fair. I can relate to that. Yeah.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. So you actually then were involved with Tata at their management center over this sort of next few years, you did MSC at London LSC, little bit of time at Duke, and then back to Tata, and then you moved into Bain, I think for six years. Give our listeners a flavor for that, because that was a sort of growth phase of your early part of your career. And it developed your thinking around how business is successful in general. And in particular, how did it sort of develop your views around entrepreneurship and those sort of things?

Mathias Imback:

I mean, I would say there were different phases. The initial phase, just while even during my studies, I would then after having gotten to know Mr. Tata, him coming to St. Gallen and me getting to know more about the conglomerate, I really got interested in wanted to learn more. So every summer break, or even sometimes during studies, I would do internships in different Tata Group companies. And that really just opened my mind to a different way of how businesses are organized, et cetera. Then I started with Bain and I think what Bain has given me is just really the tool set of professionalism in terms of task management, breaking down problems, impactful communication, stakeholder management. So that was that foundation, which I got from there.

Mathias Imback:

During my time at Bain, I had the chance of Bain supporting me actually with an MBA, which I then, because Mr. Tata told me I should not do that, I should rather spend time in India, changed into ultimately writing a book about the Tata Group, very close to him working from the chairman's office. And these two years, I would say, were the initial kind of entrepreneurial spirit, or rather seeing that analytics alone, as I've learned as a management consultant, mostly very facts driven, data driven, won't get you far as a leader or as running a business. I learned from him that gut feel is as important, working with people that you ultimately and fundamentally trust with high integrity, et cetera. So that's what I started really picking up from him and learning already during that time, even before working for him full time.

Chris Roebuck:

But, that's the sort of the interesting dichotomy between the two. You have the process elements that, everybody says you have to get the process right, but equally you are so talking about the elements that relate to entrepreneurship, gut feeling, emotion, is much less easy to quantify, but both are essential, particularly I think, in the world of the startup and the entrepreneur.

Mathias Imback:

Yes, very much so. And I would even go as far as to say that had I just stayed with Bain, and been promoted to partner and moving on here, working from Switzerland, mostly as a Swiss, having grown up and partially studied in Switzerland, I would never have become an entrepreneur. And why do I say that? Because I could say that as a Swiss, Switzerland is a country where there is rather, things are going well, economy has been doing well for quite a while, people are well off, quality of life is very high. So the risk taking propensity is rather low. Oftentimes people have a relatively high sense of entitlement, right? And the suffering factor and the persistence factor and the openness to risk and do something new is maybe not so high. And that's what I really picked up and learned and was also deeply impressed by, during my time in India and then later on also the rest of Asia.

Chris Roebuck:

Because obviously in practical terms, what you see on a day to day basis, as you live and work in India, in terms of the quality of life, the fact that people are, to be blunt, can be at the poverty line. And everybody is, to some degree struggling to make their way in life, because there is little or no support from the state itself. And it's down to you as an individual.

Mathias Imback:

Absolutely. And I mean, I have seen that was a bit later then. I don't know whether, I can already share now that after Bain, I then was asked by Mr. Tata to join him and help him set up family office, RNT associates, and invest into tech companies for him. And that was really the time where this was even more compounded. Because I would interact on a daily basis with Indian, but also US, Chinese, Singaporean, founders. And I have seen things. We have invested in a company during that time when the founder actually had to sell his house to sustain the salaries of his team for six months, so that he could continue to build. And this, I have then also seen how this company later has become a unicorn. Right? So, I've seen people doing things and taking risk that I have just not seen in Switzerland, let's put it this way. Yeah. So it's not just at the poverty line level. It's also the general, we want to change the world, we want to do things, when we are young or even people in their 40s sometimes I have seen, they have really much higher risk taking propensity.

Chris Roebuck:

And yeah, I think having spent time in India myself, there is that sort of greater level of entrepreneurial buzz that just exists within society. Sometimes when I speak around the world, I ask audiences, "How many people," because, you are all in corporates, corporate leaders. "How many of you have ever been or have experience of a startup?" And generally speaking, if you're talking about Western Europe, all the states, you might get 2% of hands going up. When you ask that question of corporate leaders in India, all the hands go up. Because in some way, shape or form, they involved in some family business that is a startup, or is entrepreneurial, or they've been an entrepreneur at some point. And there seems to be this societal entrepreneurism that is at a greater level than in Western Europe and America. Is that a fair judgment?

Mathias Imback:

Very much so. And there is the joke, right? Indians are not good at playing soccer because they would set up shop in each of the corners immediately. So there would not be space to play soccer. So at least that's what my friends always told me. Yes, it's true. I mean, there's, again, this concept of jugaad, people have been brought up with not all the infrastructure in place, it's sometimes a bit chaotic. You just have to figure out your way. And there's this pride by using what is there in an efficient manner to have impact.

Mathias Imback:

And Indians are generally extremely good at this, coming together and then taking pleasure in building something. And even now, I haven't been living in India anymore for a few years, but I'm still in close contact with my friends there. Even since I have left, this whole startup and space has massively grown. And today it's actually a big challenge, particularly, for example, for employees, corporates because most of the talent is actually flocking into now very well funded startups and scale ups. So yes, it's part of Indian's DNA.

Chris Roebuck:

That's really interesting that there is an issue with corporate talent leaving for startups because they find it more fun and more interesting.

Mathias Imback:

Very much so. I think it's not just in India, it's the case. I think it's a general phenomenon. I mean, I see it at Sygnum, right? We are a startup, scale up. I just got the figures yesterday, over the last three months, every month on average, we had more than 2000 applications, just every month. And we still are just a team of 180 people growing, but it shows you, and many of these applications are coming from let's say, prospects that are working for large corporates that want to change, that want to have conviction that things will change and they want to be part of something new. Sometimes they may underestimate what it means, but at least there's this general, it would be cool to work for a startup, has gained a lot of traction.

Chris Roebuck:

Which links to another point that I think I've always found interesting, in that people have this view that there is a startup world where everyone is entrepreneurial and there is the corporate world where people are significantly less entrepreneurial. But one of the things we've discussed with previous guests, is actually, getting entrepreneurial thinking right and leadership right is important for a startup that is scaling up, but it's also important for the larger organization. Not just commercial organizations, but public sector organizations, need to have some form of entrepreneurial thinking to grow, to develop and to meet the changing needs of whoever they serve. But do you think, given your point that there are people leaving the large corporates to go into startups, do you think that it's possible to enable leaders within a large corporate to think more entrepreneurially, even if maybe they've never been in a startup?

Mathias Imback:

Yeah, that's a very good question. I think ultimately if someone has never been thrown into a world where processes are not yet in place, where you just have to deal with what you have, where you have to have a lot of imagination and where first it's just the vision and maybe a PowerPoint and nothing else, or a few lines of code. I think it is probably important to have ones who have gone through this to really know what it means to be entrepreneurial. However, I do feel, without wanting to name them, I know corporate leaders, friends that I now would call mentors that are extremely entrepreneurial. And these are people that typically in my view have focused on putting the tone from the top in terms of making clear that culture and the values that the company wants to stand for is above everything.

Mathias Imback:

And even when it's tough decisions are needed and which brings massive short term pain, they would go for this. These are people that have found ways from a governance and incentive standpoint to really make sure that people have to take ownership for their actions in the good and the bad times. And where that is measured and also environments typically where leaders are monitored in a way that they are more respected when they create opportunities to let others shine. When it's not about them so much, but more the bigger goal as a team. So then yes, but I do feel maybe I'm a bit, not so objective because I've gone from working with Bain, bigger company, working for large organizations as a consultant and seeing how they've operated to then very small structure in the family office and now building my own company, I do feel I could not know what it means without having done it and still learning every day on it. So I think it's a bit both then. Yeah.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. I think that's a good judgment. Yeah. It's a bit of both. And I think it's fair to say that one of the discussions we had is, at UBS in the early 2000 with Peter Wolfley, we developed this concept of entrepreneurial leadership, but it wasn't about creating startups. It was about doing things that smaller organizations do that larger organizations tend to forget they should be doing. To the points you made about cascading decision making to the lowest possible level. So it's at the front line, rather than having to send things higher up to get a decision. It's about optimizing risk, not minimizing risk. It's about everybody accepting that they are there to make the whole organization successful, not just to deliver what their department delivers. As you sort of phrased it, I would phrase it as it's, the top creates a, we not me culture. Where everybody takes responsibility. And I think absolutely that those are the things help a startup be successful, and a startup would fail if you didn't have them. But I think they're equally things that listeners who are in large corporates could do as well, that would make them more agile, more flexible, more customer focused, that sometimes they just forget to do.

Mathias Imback:

Very much. You have just some right in much more beautiful way what I wanted to say. Particularly about the we culture rather than me culture, and that element of really putting in place decision mechanisms. Almost like it's within the subsidiary principle, right? Positions shall be taken at the lowest possible level as it makes sense and only cascading up where needed or for highly strategic topics, of course. These are elements that should also of course apply in large organizations.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. I think it goes to the point that the larger organization, as you refer to in terms of Bain tends to have processes, structures that everybody gets used to, and we just do what we've always done. And within the entrepreneurial world, because of what's happening, there are little or no processes or structures because the world changes every day and that forces you to cascade decision making to the lowest level and for everybody to work as we not me, because otherwise you don't survive.

Mathias Imback:

And one of the things that, as I'm still in the midst of this entrepreneurial journey, I have been very surprised by is how fast things change, right? Even just from how vastly different things are from zero to 50 team members, then from 50 to 200, which the phase we are now in approaching 200 in a month or two, it is already much more difficult than at the beginning to keep that entrepreneurial spirit and that joint alignment with the culture at the very foundation intact. So, whenever you add 20, 30 more people, it does change and you need to adjust processes, you need to adjust the information flows, you need to adjust the governance every now and then to keep up with just the growth and the complexity that come with more human beings being thrown in the ring and having to work together. Right? So I've been quite impressed by that and actually surprised how fast it changes.

Chris Roebuck:

But that's one of the, speaking to guests who've been entrepreneurs and scaled or people who, as you did to some degree. You were investing in entrepreneurs. There is always that critical point where because of the scaling, the original founder has to accept they cannot still do everything. They have to accept that they require expert advice and that they need to let their supporting new management team get on with things without being interfered, and they need to learn how to delegate. And if you've created something yourself, giving up control is sometimes difficult. And that I think is where you start moving from the 30 to 100 to 200. You have to give up control, but have you seen that's tough? Psychologically, for all the entrepreneurs you've dealt with previously, you must have seen tough for some of them.

Mathias Imback:

Yes. And I can also speak about myself. This has been tough and I have also received the feedbacks at times, particularly at these moments where next level of complexity number of people that I have to delegate more and have to be less hands on. So I'm also, as any other or most of the founders going through that sometimes not so easy journey, because it also means you sometimes have to look at things being done very differently than you would do it and focus and maybe not always go in and let others also sometimes make mistakes or find an even better way than probably I would have found. That's a journey. So we have actually established a behavior at Sygnum for Sygnum leaders where we say, "We want to be hands off, if things go well and hands on helping otherwise." And that is what I also try to tell myself every day, that's how I want to act. So when things go well, I let them run, empower them fully. But if there's an issue, then more hands on helping and go in and also be more operationally involved. So that's how I try to operate.

Chris Roebuck:

We'll sort of dig into Sygnum in a little bit more in a moment, but one of the things that has come out in your career is that you are really interested in the concept of people taking back control of what they do in work and lives. The businesses, taking out intermediaries, decentralizing structures, and these principles sort of started creating the idea behind where you are now. So give us an insight into this principle or the ideas that you have about people taking back control, this decentralization, why you think that's really important for people in the future and how you think the digital world can just make that more effective.

Mathias Imback:

I mean, it was a mix of A, my exposure to a technology initially by my brother, the blockchain technology in 2012. At that point it was basically Bitcoin, nothing else. And also then my career and what I have seen throughout. So it was in 2012, just a very intriguing idea that you can transfer originals and not copies of something from me to you at any point in time, as long as you have access to the internet. Just a very intriguing idea, but it was not more than that at that point. But then throughout my career at Bain, and even more importantly with Mr. Tata investing, particularly in Silicon Valley companies, et cetera, obviously through him, whenever the big entrepreneurs would come to India, they would call on him and I would be part of these meetings, the big Silicon Valley guys that you would very much know.

Mathias Imback:

I got scared because the way we are operating, still to the large extent today is on the basis of having an internet stack or a digital world, which is ripe for very few, so-called Siren Servers, being able to take control of our data, monopolize it, and then monetize it. This is the Googles, the Facebooks, the Amazons of the world, and that happens because they can use the internet and the internet stack, which is very centralized to leverage the network effects, the winner takes it all kind of aspect, and then really monetize it. The same applied when we invested in autonomous driving components and car companies, then that layer of, "Okay, in 10 years, we will all drive autonomously. So what will happen to those migrants and others that for which taxi driving and et cetera, is an important first job when they migrate, et cetera? This has a history. This is very important."

Mathias Imback:

So I got actually quite scared and I wanted to break out of this. So I became a libertarian. So in '14 then, I got a hold of the Ethereum Whitepaper, which is now the second largest cryptocurrency, but not because of the investment element of it but rather, I saw a way with this infrastructure that I got to know in 2012, this ability to transfer [inaudible 00:36:24] and our copies, a way to take back control of what we own of our identity, that we can decide how we transfer what we own and also what happens with our attention. For example, in this world with this technology, you could have people being paid and with the micropayment system for looking at ads online, for example. Right now it's just a very few centralized entities that make the money with it.

Mathias Imback:

And that led me to become quite a libertarian thinker. In fact, I must also tell you as a former banker, I even wanted to live without a bank account for a while. And then '14, '15, '16, '17 went through that phase. I got to know this ecosystem, many of the founders that were building these decentralized infrastructure and protocols, also got to know my co-founders along the way, and only in '17, towards the end of '17, actually in Singapore, during the FinTech Festival, we came together and realized this is all good, and it's a massive potential, and we need to decentralize the world. However, it has been a bit detached from reality because people could not, for example, open a bank account that were dealing with these assets and have these ideas. So we thought we need to help bridge these two worlds. And so that's how Sygnum emerged. So that's a little bit the journey that I took in that regard.

Chris Roebuck:

So it was an idea that, you said your brother back in 2012 was doing what he did, and it sort of started this idea that just built up momentum till you started Sygnum in May '18. So give our listeners an insight into what a digital bank does, why it's different and why that difference is important.

Mathias Imback:

Yeah. So you can think of Sygnum as a digital asset technology group with its own bank. So we are a bank, but we are not a with an IT department, but much rather a technology company, because everything we do is built around technology with a banking license, so we can operate and offer the services to our clients that we want. It is true that as you say, it's all digital due from the whole value chain interacting with our platform can be digital, even though we even today also offer for if clients want to obviously personal interaction. And I think this will always stay the same because ultimately we all sell trust in this industry. So what is a digital asset bank or technology group with its own bank? It's a bank which is solely focused on leveraging this new infrastructure based on the blockchain to offer to clients, more choice.

Mathias Imback:

And this is all dealing with selected cryptocurrency, stable coins, asset tokens, ready to tokenize or fractionalize physical elements, such as art, real estate and other elements, into the digital world, and why this technology make transferable much more easily. Now this may sound, if it's not a topic or an industry that you've been following also, the listeners been following, it may sound all a bit alien, but ultimately in terms of business model, it's very similar to a traditional bank. So we offer accounts in custody. You can also have your US Dollar and Swiss Frank account with Sygnum, but you then have a 24/7 infrastructure to trade into this new world. We have an options business around it, we lending asset management, and the fee structures et cetera, is actually pretty similar to the traditional banking system. It's just with a new asset class.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah, yeah. That additional asset class that is digital. So now you have sort of been on this journey, CEO of a leading edge organization. So give our listeners an idea of what your key principles are that some of which you alluded to earlier in terms of how you achieve success, attracting clients, attracting investors, inspiring people, and getting the best from them to deliver success for the organization. What are your key principles in making that work?

Mathias Imback:

I think you've mentioned different stakeholders. And if I had to say one thing that is true for all the stakeholders is really, I would just make it very simple to be genuine. I'm just really trying to be myself and to be genuine, and to also have the willingness to show weakness when I am weak or when I don't like something to just be honest and transparent and direct. So the be genuine, I think that also then leads to, I always say I sell best, particularly to clients when I don't sell. I truly believe in what I do. And if I tell people about what we do at Sygnum and or products, et cetera, I don't want to sell them to them necessarily. It's just, I have this passion for it. And people typically pick this up and then that's becoming the biggest sales argument, right? By being genuine and just truly doing what I believe in. And not for a quick buck or for a short term gains, et cetera, to make it a long term sustainable approach.

Mathias Imback:

So that is one, the being genuine. Then secondly, as an organization, by putting I've mentioned it before, culture above everything. I really believe culture eats strategy for lunch, breakfast, dinner, and anything in between. I think it's the number one important pillar of an organization of when one builds an institution. And you can always check as a leader whether it's just lip service or whether you really do it, when you take decisions that hurt short term to protect your culture in terms of how you manage people, partners, et cetera. So when you have to take short term decisions, which really hurt you, but you do it to protect your culture, then you take culture seriously. So that is my experience and I'll try to live that. And then it's also maybe vis a vis to working with my team, it's to be trying to be very approachable and in the trenches, when it has to be there, not kind of trying to steer from far away, but really every now and then show again, obviously have enough of stepping back time to think strategy, et cetera, but every now and then to go deep and show them that you're really in it with them and that you know their problems and that you want to solve them with them.

Mathias Imback:

And then as mentioned before, I truly believe in this from a leadership standpoint that being hands off if things go well, and hands on helping otherwise is a key principle, I try to abide. And then last but not least, I would say by not taking oneself too seriously, I know that I'm just still a relatively young entrepreneur who makes mistakes every day and wants to just learn and not taking myself too seriously along the way.

Chris Roebuck:

That's a great, great list. But one of the most powerful things that I think you've picked up in there, and talking to leaders around the world, one of the things that comes out time and time again in terms of their relationship with their best boss, is the fact that their best boss did things that created trust. That demonstrated humility. That created belief. And it's interesting that within the very, very structured world of a digital bank, where everything can be quantified to some degree, what you are effectively saying is the things that drive performance in this structured digital world, one of them is actually emotional. The fact that you are creating an emotional bond between you and your investors, as well as a financial bond between you and your people, because it goes to your point about being genuine. And that creates that trust. And I think maybe leaders underestimate the power of emotion too much.

Mathias Imback:

Very, very much. And actually, now that you're saying it, I should have said one more thing. I mean, if there's one thing I learned and have been so impressed by by Mr. Tata is really the humbleness. I could go as far as to say, I've never met anyone as humble as Mr. Tata. And by this humbleness, the kind of respect that he demands as a result also of that, and very much unrelated to the general power, what he stands for itself, but just by being human, approachable in the moment when he interacts with people, being in the moment when interacting with people, irrespective of their level, from the prime minister to the driver, and being genuinely like that, and people feel that. I think that has even financially, for the Tata Group have led to the brand that it has become because of him, and then also his leaders behaving in this way.

Mathias Imback:

And this is one of the biggest learnings that I took away. And I always tell my people or my team that a key success factors for us to check whether we are successful is whether people or stakeholders enjoy working with us. And that is not just the clients or investors. It's also the media, it's the suppliers we are working with on the IT and other ways, it's the people that help us in the office management, help clean, et cetera, everyone. And I do that. I make it a point to ask these people, "How is it working with Sygnumers?" And if I ever get any feeling that there's not so well, then this is a big watch out. And that's exactly for that human element and trust and being genuine that you've mentioned.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. And your point is really interesting that this is not just about investors. This is not just about staff. This is just fundamental to the creation of positive relationships. But your point about Mr. Tata and the fact that any people who are senior leaders, listening, it's the importance of spending time with the people who are the most junior in the organization, but showing new care. And interestingly, the trend that I have often noticed is that people who have got to the top, to the boardroom, to being chief executives of major organizations, many of them are actually quite humble and they will talk to people and they will show an interest. And I think it's sometimes the leaders who think they are on the way to the boardroom and are in a hurry, who don't think they have time to deal with other people. And so many times I have seen those people's careers come to grief because they have started thinking me not we, rather than we not me.

Mathias Imback:

Yes. And then as you grow, obviously this becomes more and more difficult. So what I have tried to do, for example, as a CEO, every two months I do so-called AMA mornings. So there's Ask Mathias Anything mornings, so I block one morning and I just say, here is a file. You can block 15 minutes. I just put your name first, come first serve. And I always have five hours of 15 minutes after 15 minutes, different people from interns to anyone that wants to come. And it's one of my favorite mornings every two months, right? Because I learn so much and I get so much energy, but I also get a pulse. And I pick up things that do not work. So I think that's of one of the ways I'm trying to stay close to everyone.

Mathias Imback:

But of course, that doesn't substitute just sometimes, leading by wandering the halls, right? Just walking around and chatting, et cetera, and have coffee breaks. Another thing that I saw, which I found interesting to your point around board members and how their path towards it. Peter Wolfley, whom you know very well, who's on the board of Sygnum. I remember when we had the discussion of him joining, before even joining, and then immediately after as well. He made it a point to spend significant time with as many as possible Sygnumers. Whatever the level, right? To really get a feeling and also to do exactly what we are discussing here. So people have been very successful, at the board level, seem to be trying to keep that connect to reality and to the ground.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. And also, as you having worked with Peter Wolfley and our listeners will know that Peter was a guest earlier on in the series, because he was chief executive at UBS, he now runs his earlier foundation enabling the sort of beating of poverty through entrepreneurial activity around the world. And that is the way that he operates in that humble way and the results that it produces. So to sort of pull it together then, say one or two key things you would say that leaders should do more of tomorrow. Sorry. And I should say to C-suite leaders, take Mathias's idea about having ask you, a set of series of discussions every month. Because I think that's a brilliant idea. But one or two things you think leaders listening should do more of tomorrow.

Mathias Imback:

One thing that I do, and I'm also happy to reveal, it's also something I learned from Mr. Tata is a sunshine test. So every evening when I go home, and I also tell that regularly to my team, because I believe it really fundamentally changes how you go about your business and interactions, is I ask myself and Mr. Tata always did that on the way home when we were driving, "Let's think through what we did today and what we decided today and how it impacted the various stakeholders. If tomorrow morning, everything we did and said, and have done to people. If it's on the front page of the financial times, how would you feel? Would you feel ashamed in front of your family, friends, wife, kids, your colleagues?" And if you do that and you can say no, and you live your life and your business endeavors that way, it opens up so much room to actually try and make mistakes, because you know it is always within that, I don't have to feel ashamed if it's on the front page. And so for me, it's a ritual, which I think can be very helpful also to lead people and to lead an organization. So I would pick that one.

Chris Roebuck:

Yeah. Yeah. So for listeners, just think about, if you are a leader, all things that you are doing, would you want your friends and family and other people who you value to know that you are doing those things? Would you be proud of your actions? And I think that's a critical test of integrity as well. So how can people learn more about you and what Sygnum does?

Mathias Imback:

Well, we are of course, on Twitter, on LinkedIn as sygnum.com, S-Y-G-N-U-M.com, where you see what we're doing. And I'm obviously always also happy to receive emails or just have a chat with people, interested at mathias.imbach@sygnum.com. So feel free to reach out. And it's always a pleasure to get to know interesting people and debate.

Chris Roebuck:

Exactly. That is so great, Mathias. Thank you very much indeed for your time. Good luck. Good luck with your project and the future.

Mathias Imback:

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Chris. It was a great pleasure and have a good day.

Chris Roebuck:

My pleasure. Cheers. One of the things which comes out from what Mathias said, was the really wide ranging experience that he has had. Which gives him a really broad perspective on what delivers success in organizations. His exposure to both large organizations and to startups, but startups both in the sense of looking at them from the investor's perspective, and also from the perspective of leading one. His exposure to different levels of entrepreneurial thinking, not just in different sized organizations, not just in different sectors, but also in the variation of entrepreneurial thinking between different cultures around the world. And in addition to that, his principle of looking for opportunity for people to have more control of their own lives. His really clear expertise within the very technical and bottom line focused world of digital and banking, but also his deep belief in the importance of people. Now that's particularly clear in what he said around humility, trust, showing people that you care, and his simple act of allowing anyone in the organization to ask him anything in his regular consultation sessions.

Chris Roebuck:

So a few takeaways would perhaps be, always make sure the operational delivery is good. Always bear in mind the big picture. Always empower people as much as you can. And always show you care. Now in a week, I'll give you a more in-depth view of my key takeaways from Mathias's interview, my insights and ideas for action in my reflections on the Top. If you've used any of the insights you've got from previous Perspectives from the Top, and they have helped you, please send me your success stories. I'd love to hear them. Also, don't forget to sign up on the website so you don't miss any of the great guests we have in future. Thanks for tuning in. Check out the show notes from today's episodes at perspectivesfromthetop.com, where you can not only enjoy additional resources from today's show, but all previous ones. If you haven't already, subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your favorite podcast, so you don't miss any. And if you really enjoyed the show, please give us a five star rating and review. Have a question or comment? Let's discuss it. Message me on LinkedIn. Perspectives from the Top is produced in collaboration with Detroit Podcast Studios. So have a successful week, use today's new learnings and actions, and remember. It's onwards and upwards. See you next time on Perspectives from the Top.